Macbook Pro broken after two weeks - my fault?
Discussion
First off - I don't want to slate Apple. I have used their computers for 15 plus years. My 14 year old Macbook is still used by my Mum - the battery is knackered but it survived me dropping a dumbbell on it. The pro after it only went to computer heaven after I broke it trying to change a battery myself. The version after that is still working to some degree - just the battery is knackered. I have taken them all around the world backpacking and travelling. I have used and abused them. And they have not let me down.
However 3 weeks ago I decided to treat myself rather than paying for a new battery. After just over a week it wouldn't turn on. It never left the house or my desk/table. There is zero chance I spilt fluid on it. But it was dead.
I took it to Apple thinking they would quickly fix/change it. But they have instead said I have caused water damage. That simply isn't possible. Now I'm personally covered both my house insurance and also American express cover - so at most my exposure is £50 (zero on contents insurance and £50 with amex). But it feels wrong to just accept this. Apple want £650 to fix it and that might go up.
Here is the pic of logic board showing the damage:
One of the case showing I water evidence:
Curiously zero of the liquid indicators have gone off. But according to Apple that proves nothing. To my logic if I dropped water unknowingly or other fluids into it surely one of them would have activated? Apparently and I quote (and have in writing) the LCI (liquid contact indicator) does not indicate if liquid had entered the device.
As I've said I am covered either way. But I'm frustrated. Thought I'd ask what any knowledgable people on here thought? If you work/have experience in PCB could that corrosion be caused by something other than water? Could it be some sort of manufacturing defect? I'm always happy to be told I'm wrong etc. But I do know for sure I never got it wet.
Cheers
However 3 weeks ago I decided to treat myself rather than paying for a new battery. After just over a week it wouldn't turn on. It never left the house or my desk/table. There is zero chance I spilt fluid on it. But it was dead.
I took it to Apple thinking they would quickly fix/change it. But they have instead said I have caused water damage. That simply isn't possible. Now I'm personally covered both my house insurance and also American express cover - so at most my exposure is £50 (zero on contents insurance and £50 with amex). But it feels wrong to just accept this. Apple want £650 to fix it and that might go up.
Here is the pic of logic board showing the damage:
One of the case showing I water evidence:
Curiously zero of the liquid indicators have gone off. But according to Apple that proves nothing. To my logic if I dropped water unknowingly or other fluids into it surely one of them would have activated? Apparently and I quote (and have in writing) the LCI (liquid contact indicator) does not indicate if liquid had entered the device.
As I've said I am covered either way. But I'm frustrated. Thought I'd ask what any knowledgable people on here thought? If you work/have experience in PCB could that corrosion be caused by something other than water? Could it be some sort of manufacturing defect? I'm always happy to be told I'm wrong etc. But I do know for sure I never got it wet.
Cheers
TonyRPH said:
Is there any chance it could be condensation?
Not in my lounge. Don't even get a drop on the windows. I'm baffled. And I am genuinely wondering if it could be a defect from the factory. I can't believe that a modern £1000 plus laptop cannot survive being left on a table in a heated house.
It certainly looks like it’s had moisture inside to me. The copper corrosion suggests something corrosive - Coca Cola perhaps.
If you didn’t do it, is there any possibility another third party could have done - family or visitor perhaps? Was there anyone in your house between last using the device and it failing to power on?
The problem with the it was like that from the factory (or anywhere before you had it) hypothesis is that it looks likes some of the components have shorted due moisture across them, but it seems so highly unlikely that sufficient moisture could exist inside the case for 3 weeks and move around to later short components - it would have been DOA. The heat would evaporate small amounts of moisture over a 3 week period.
Manufacturers must get claims like this all time. I remember 20+ years ago when I was a teenager my very expensive newish Nokia phone died suddenly on a night out. I took it in to CPW who told me it was water damaged and I swore blind there was never any water been anywhere near it. I had Orange Care on it which covered accidental damage so they sent me a new one FOC anyway. I went back to college and told a mate I was out with what had happened who then admitted someone had knocked a pint of lager over it whilst I’d gone for a piss and nobody owned up because they thought they’d be on the hook for the replacement cost.
If your exposure is only £50 I can’t see a scenario where you’ll get sufficient evidence to force Apple to repair that won’t cost you a lot more than that. You’d need to get those spots analysed to find out what they are in the first instance.
If you didn’t do it, is there any possibility another third party could have done - family or visitor perhaps? Was there anyone in your house between last using the device and it failing to power on?
The problem with the it was like that from the factory (or anywhere before you had it) hypothesis is that it looks likes some of the components have shorted due moisture across them, but it seems so highly unlikely that sufficient moisture could exist inside the case for 3 weeks and move around to later short components - it would have been DOA. The heat would evaporate small amounts of moisture over a 3 week period.
Manufacturers must get claims like this all time. I remember 20+ years ago when I was a teenager my very expensive newish Nokia phone died suddenly on a night out. I took it in to CPW who told me it was water damaged and I swore blind there was never any water been anywhere near it. I had Orange Care on it which covered accidental damage so they sent me a new one FOC anyway. I went back to college and told a mate I was out with what had happened who then admitted someone had knocked a pint of lager over it whilst I’d gone for a piss and nobody owned up because they thought they’d be on the hook for the replacement cost.
If your exposure is only £50 I can’t see a scenario where you’ll get sufficient evidence to force Apple to repair that won’t cost you a lot more than that. You’d need to get those spots analysed to find out what they are in the first instance.
Apple laptops appear to be deliberately designed to fail from the slightest bit of real world juice, from the gammy gpus to the hard drive and monitor ribbon cables to zero effert being put into environmental mitigation. I loved using mine, but it was like trying to keep a range rover running in good condition.
OldGermanHeaps said:
Apple laptops appear to be deliberately designed to fail from the slightest bit of real world juice...
And considering that coffee and laptops go together, it must be lucrative. If you look at the Mac support thread, I posted my recent repair bill. Only spilled a tiny bit of water on it that a Thinkpad would have shrugged off.If you don't have it covered under another accidental insurance policy, and are buying high spec so many £ks, applecare+ needs to be seen as part of the purchase price.
hyphen said:
OldGermanHeaps said:
Apple laptops appear to be deliberately designed to fail from the slightest bit of real world juice...
And considering that coffee and laptops go together, it must be lucrative. If you look at the Mac support thread, I posted my recent repair bill. Only spilled a tiny bit of water on it that a Thinkpad would have shrugged off.If you don't have it covered under another accidental insurance policy, and are buying high spec so many £ks, applecare+ needs to be seen as part of the purchase price.
robsa said:
Oh please! Are you saying that Apple deliberately engineer their laptops so they are more prone to breaking? ....
Always follow the money; the demand for repairs is so great that the number of 3rd party authorised Apple repairers has exploded. But even that isn't enough, so yesterday Apple announced they will be asking consumers to repair themselves using tools and parts they will mail out. Possibly with a view to lowering the repair cost whilst maintaining same profit on it 
https://techcrunch.com/2021/11/17/beginning-next-y...
Laptops and a drink go together, they should be designed so a minor spill should be shrugged off and limited to a keyboard/mouse replacement (i.e. designed so the water runs a certain way, as per the 'spill resistant' Thinpad design). Also remember that modern laptops solder the harddrive on as part of the board. So water damage = everything potentially lost, (dependent on backup mentality).
My bill for a tiny water spill was £1,200 and the initial estimate was much higher but some parts were not needed.
Edited by hyphen on Thursday 18th November 14:31
To be honest, I am very surprised they went so far as to open it up. Within 30 days I would be expecting them to say 'hey, really sorry about that, have another'.
With respect to your issue, I would continue to press it with Apple, they are normally pretty good. Back when I had a 2015 11 inch MacBook, it suddenly died and wouldn't turn on one day. Took it under warranty for repair, and after 3 days they said 'sorry, we can't fix it, have a new one'. And I had a brand new model waiting for me.
With respect to your issue, I would continue to press it with Apple, they are normally pretty good. Back when I had a 2015 11 inch MacBook, it suddenly died and wouldn't turn on one day. Took it under warranty for repair, and after 3 days they said 'sorry, we can't fix it, have a new one'. And I had a brand new model waiting for me.
Decent laptops, even cheaper brands have conformal coating under the keyboard and many have a keyboard membrane that directs spillages away from the motherboard.
The choice to omit those inexpensive mitigations has to be deliberate on such an expensive product.
Mind you my mrs had a warranty claim denied on an iphone 8 that got lightly splashed despite them claiming the device was ip rated at the time of sale, so f
k apple, I have had it with their ste.
The choice to omit those inexpensive mitigations has to be deliberate on such an expensive product.
Mind you my mrs had a warranty claim denied on an iphone 8 that got lightly splashed despite them claiming the device was ip rated at the time of sale, so f
k apple, I have had it with their ste. devnull said:
To be honest, I am very surprised they went so far as to open it up. Within 30 days I would be expecting them to say 'hey, really sorry about that, have another'.
With respect to your issue, I would continue to press it with Apple, they are normally pretty good. Back when I had a 2015 11 inch MacBook, it suddenly died and wouldn't turn on one day. Took it under warranty for repair, and after 3 days they said 'sorry, we can't fix it, have a new one'. And I had a brand new model waiting for me.
I have seen a shift in Apple's approach to customer service once Tim took over. With respect to your issue, I would continue to press it with Apple, they are normally pretty good. Back when I had a 2015 11 inch MacBook, it suddenly died and wouldn't turn on one day. Took it under warranty for repair, and after 3 days they said 'sorry, we can't fix it, have a new one'. And I had a brand new model waiting for me.
I had an issue with ordering 2 newly released iPhone 12 Max phones. One got stuck in customs and one was delivered straight away. In the old days they would have apologized and told me to pick one up from a shop they reserved for me. Instead, I was met with hours of phone calls to people who did not have any power to resolve and were just able to tell me the status which I knew because it was on the website. I was lied to multiple times to get me off the phone. I was also told it would take 2 weeks to escalate to a manager. Ultimately, one phone was delivered a month after the first. They sent me a charging station to appologise...It does not work with the iPhone 12 which was well documented at the time.
hyphen said:
Always follow the money; the demand for repairs is so great that the number of 3rd party authorised Apple repairers has exploded. But even that isn't enough, so yesterday Apple announced they will be asking consumers to repair themselves using tools and parts they will mail out. Possibly with a view to lowering the repair cost whilst maintaining same profit on it
https://techcrunch.com/2021/11/17/beginning-next-y...
Laptops and a drink go together, they should be designed so a minor spill should be shrugged off and limited to a keyboard/mouse replacement (i.e. designed so the water runs a certain way, as per the 'spill resistant' Thinpad design). Also remember that modern laptops solder the harddrive on as part of the board. So water damage = everything potentially lost, (dependent on backup mentality).
My bill for a tiny water spill was £1,200 and the initial estimate was much higher but some parts were not needed.
Yeah, I am aware of Apples new weird 'fix-it yourself' scheme. I can't quite decide whether it's Apple trolling people or not. Are they finally telling all those people who shouted out that they could "fix their phone themselves, if only Apple would supply them with the kit that they need" that they have heard their demands and want to help? Or are they just thinking 'yep, let them try and fix an insanely complicated bit of technology in their grubby basements - they will just end up having to bring it to us once they've screwed it'? Who knows.https://techcrunch.com/2021/11/17/beginning-next-y...
Laptops and a drink go together, they should be designed so a minor spill should be shrugged off and limited to a keyboard/mouse replacement (i.e. designed so the water runs a certain way, as per the 'spill resistant' Thinpad design). Also remember that modern laptops solder the harddrive on as part of the board. So water damage = everything potentially lost, (dependent on backup mentality).
My bill for a tiny water spill was £1,200 and the initial estimate was much higher but some parts were not needed.
Edited by hyphen on Thursday 18th November 14:31
But no, I really don't believe that Apple make laptops which are deliberately engineered to break. And all the things you mention aren't there to prevent repair, they are they for increased performance and efficiency. I have been using MacBooks daily for about fifteen years or so, and various windows laptops and I can tell you that in my experience, Apple MacBooks really take a hammering. Mine have been so abused and kept on going - my missus left hers out, open, in a heavy rain shower, and apart from bluetooth eventually dying it carried on working for another five years! Your opinion on this is far too simplistic, and I honestly see no convincing evidence for it.
PS as an aside, I don't trust Apple authorised repair agents! The number of times they've screwed my hardware up... I wouldn't use one now to do anything other than replace a phone case.
robsa said:
Yeah, I am aware of Apples new weird 'fix-it yourself' scheme. I can't quite decide whether it's Apple trolling people or not. Are they finally telling all those people who shouted out that they could "fix their phone themselves, if only Apple would supply them with the kit that they need" that they have heard their demands and want to help? Or are they just thinking 'yep, let them try and fix an insanely complicated bit of technology in their grubby basements - they will just end up having to bring it to us once they've screwed it'? Who knows.
But no, I really don't believe that Apple make laptops which are deliberately engineered to break. And all the things you mention aren't there to prevent repair, they are they for increased performance and efficiency. I have been using MacBooks daily for about fifteen years or so, and various windows laptops and I can tell you that in my experience, Apple MacBooks really take a hammering. Mine have been so abused and kept on going - my missus left hers out, open, in a heavy rain shower, and apart from bluetooth eventually dying it carried on working for another five years! Your opinion on this is far too simplistic, and I honestly see no convincing evidence for it.
PS as an aside, I don't trust Apple authorised repair agents! The number of times they've screwed my hardware up... I wouldn't use one now to do anything other than replace a phone case.
The reason why Apple has suddenly decided to offer the ability for its customers to repair its kit, is because there is a groundswell in public opinion on the 'right to repair'. There's a lot of US states which are trying to create new laws, AND a bunch of Apple shareholders kicked up a stink on the subject. Apple are doing something before they are fined or the new laws are enacted.But no, I really don't believe that Apple make laptops which are deliberately engineered to break. And all the things you mention aren't there to prevent repair, they are they for increased performance and efficiency. I have been using MacBooks daily for about fifteen years or so, and various windows laptops and I can tell you that in my experience, Apple MacBooks really take a hammering. Mine have been so abused and kept on going - my missus left hers out, open, in a heavy rain shower, and apart from bluetooth eventually dying it carried on working for another five years! Your opinion on this is far too simplistic, and I honestly see no convincing evidence for it.
PS as an aside, I don't trust Apple authorised repair agents! The number of times they've screwed my hardware up... I wouldn't use one now to do anything other than replace a phone case.
In terms of phones, most manufacturers make them difficult to fix because they are cramming a shedload of features into a small space and making them easier to fix would make them bigger and less robust (i.e. water protection).
In terms of laptops, Apple on purpose make them difficult to work on (for average users) to enable them to be slimmer, to upsell memory/disks at point of sale, to make manufacture cheaper and to ensure that you have to take them back to Apple for fixes.
I'm happy working on Windows laptops (i.e. battery swaps, memory/disk upgrades) but would never do that to an Apple device because they are too tricky to work on.
Bottom line, Apple try and restrict your ability to fix, so that they can make more money.
P.S. if you want to see someone fixing water damaged Apple laptops check out "my mate Vince" on youtube...
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