ULEZ and neo classics

[bordseye]

Slightly alarmist piece in Octane this month on the subject of ULEZ and what it might do to the clssic car hobby for card less than 40 years old, but older than Euro 4. It all seems quite confusing and the rules are far from consistent. For example, the government checker says no problem with my Ferrari 360 of 2003 vintage except in Birmingham. Yet the car predates EURO 4

In the admin of the ULEZ xones there are some obvious questions:

1/ are they playing by the same rules or can each city mayor make up his own
2/ are these the permanent rules or are we going to move to euro 5 or 6 or whatever in future
3/ clearly some pre EURO 4 cars are being allowed - on what data is this being done
4/ motorbikes can be modified and get re-assessed but apparently not cars. Why not?

Then of course there is the value issue. Notwithstanding the rules, it seems to me that there will be fewer potential owners for the 20 to 40 year old classics because many will live in cities applying the ULEZ zones. What will happen to the saleability of such cars.

Views?

[donkmeister]

bordseye said:

Slightly alarmist piece in Octane this month on the subject of ULEZ and what it might do to the clssic car hobby for card less than 40 years old, but older than Euro 4. It all seems quite confusing and the rules are far from consistent. For example, the government checker says no problem with my Ferrari 360 of 2003 vintage except in Birmingham. Yet the car predates EURO 4

In the admin of the ULEZ xones there are some obvious questions:

1/ are they playing by the same rules or can each city mayor make up his own
2/ are these the permanent rules or are we going to move to euro 5 or 6 or whatever in future
3/ clearly some pre EURO 4 cars are being allowed - on what data is this being done
4/ motorbikes can be modified and get re-assessed but apparently not cars. Why not?

Then of course there is the value issue. Notwithstanding the rules, it seems to me that there will be fewer potential owners for the 20 to 40 year old classics because many will live in cities applying the ULEZ zones. What will happen to the saleability of such cars.

Views?

Well oo-arr, uz country dwellers owenly droive trackers so oi dunno what you'm posh city folk will do.

Most people who have the sort of jobs in the big cities that would lend themselves to the disposable income for classic car ownership don't actually live in the big cities. Sure, many of my friends who have stayed working in London have a pied a terre in the city, but their first home is in the Shires and they get to and fro by train.

The Venn diagram of "people who have their sole residence in central London", "people who have parking space for multiple vehicles" and "people who can't afford ULEZ fines" will, I suspect, have a rather small overlap. Having seen some of the expensive houses a short train ride from other major cities, I don't think London is alone in that regard.

ETA I like the term "neo-classic", think I'll borrow that for my small collection

[ingenieur]

The ones I've been seeing 'forced to sell because of ULEZ' on eBay tend to be cars which had been in daily use.

[Darinz]

bordseye said:

In the admin of the ULEZ xones there are some obvious questions:

1/ are they playing by the same rules or can each city mayor make up his own
2/ are these the permanent rules or are we going to move to euro 5 or 6 or whatever in future
3/ clearly some pre EURO 4 cars are being allowed - on what data is this being done
4/ motorbikes can be modified and get re-assessed but apparently not cars. Why not?

Then of course there is the value issue. Notwithstanding the rules, it seems to me that there will be fewer potential owners for the 20 to 40 year old classics because many will live in cities applying the ULEZ zones. What will happen to the saleability of such cars.

Views?

1/ not sure but I would think each city can make up their own considering plenty of cities have nothing yet
2/ of course they are NOT permanent, it will only get stricter and in quite a short time be EVs only you can be sure of that (eventually no private cars presumably, car shares etc only)

the other Qs I will have to leave for someone else.

The value issue is an interesting one, I don't think the locale will matter too much but demand will reduce if you simply can't enjoy the car for whatever reason, however a lot of these cars barely move anyway so I think demand should do OK, not to mention the obvious that no more of these cars are ever being made so the supply is completely limited.

Furthermore, EV conversions will become better, easier, cheaper allowing classics to continue their lives in other ways.

[Darinz]

remember also, ULEZ is only £12.50. For classic cars that's hardly the end of the world if you really want to drive it into a city with a limit.

Even as these inevitably increase and become more like fines, e.g. £100+ if you are going to a show once a year in a city, I'm sure you can manage it alongside all the other costs of classic ownership.

[bordseye]

Darinz said:

remember also, ULEZ is only £12.50. For classic cars that's hardly the end of the world if you really want to drive it into a city with a limit.

Even as these inevitably increase and become more like fines, e.g. £100+ if you are going to a show once a year in a city, I'm sure you can manage it alongside all the other costs of classic ownership.

There are lots of people on average income but with an old classic and for whom £100 is significant. The average pensioner income for example is something like £12k a year.

[Gooly]

I've posted about this a few times on the ULEZ thread but it's not got picked up on due to the sheer volume of pointless, puerile bickering between a handful of members.

Motorcyclists have banded together and managed to get someone to open up a testing station in East London. The issue is ULEZ is based on declared NOX emissions (and only NOX - you can have a Euro 3 car that conforms to the Euro 4 NOX standard and it will pass ULEZ), and only cars registered after 1999 have NOX standards declared. There could be many many 90s and even 80s classics that have low enough NOX emissions to pass, but we don't know as they have no emissions declared and neither TFL nor a private garage has stepped up with testing facilities.

Having facilities to test (and therefore potentially go on to retrofit emissions equipment) would save many a roadworthy (and emissions worthy) modern classic and keep them on London's roads. I contacted Modern Classics mag about this but unfortunately they have now closed their doors, and Classic Cars Weekly didn't respond.

There are a fair few 1999 and 2000 cars (including many BMWs) that display a compliant NOX figure on their Certificate of Conformity but not on their V5, which can be made compliant purely with the submission of that CoC. The relevant figure is 0.8 - if yours is under, it passes.

If we had a NOX testing station we could save many 90s classics and possibly many 80s classics too. NOX measured to a Euro 4 standard means sticking a relevant gas analyzing probe up the exhaust during a cold start - this I believe is known as a Type 1 test and is what is referenced in the Consolidated Scheme Order upon which ULEZ is based.

NOX tends to be lower on inefficient, rich, cold running engines. Theres a good chance that people's beloved E30s, 993s, 205 GTIs etc could be made to pass with basic tuning but we need someone / some people to pull together and bite the bullet for the testing station. Post-ULEZ London still has many, many non ULEZ modern classics floating about - there is room yet to save them!

Those outside of London may be able to shrug their shoulders for now but I can guarantee this is coming to almost every major urban area in England within the next 5 years. Birmingham and Bath have already done it and Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield aren't far behind. Clean Air Zones are Britain's motoring future for the next 10 years at least and now is the time to act.

[Macron]

Just wait until 2025 when petrol needs to be Euro5.

I'm also slightly confused why anyone would think letting these, in the main, quite dirty old cars, remain in use in a city come what may. And I own several of them, and live on the fringe of what what be a ulez equivalent (in Glasgow).

[Gooly]

Macron said:

Just wait until 2025 when petrol needs to be Euro5.

I'm also slightly confused why anyone would think letting these, in the main, quite dirty old cars, remain in use in a city come what may. And I own several of them, and live on the fringe of what what be a ulez equivalent (in Glasgow).

Because they aren't as dirty as we think. 90s cars aren't ULEZ chargeable because they are dirty, they are ULEZ chargeable because no NOX figures are held on them by the DVLA. My E46 M3 and E46 330i have NOX emissions low enough to pass today's Euro 6 emissions, as do many other early 2000s BMWs - and yet, an X reg E46 330i comes up as not ULEZ compliant, because the DVLA holds no NOX figures from the 2000 models, despite it having the exact same engine and emissions equipment as my Y reg 330i, which is compliant. Same story with the E39, where an S-reg 540i with the M62TU engine isn't ULEZ compliant, but an identical Y reg one is.

I support the concept of ULEZ and I want clean air for myself and future generations - I personally don't think that is, or has to be, at odds with wanting to keep modern classics in my city.

[Fastdruid]

Macron said:

Just wait until 2025 when petrol needs to be Euro5

Er, not going to because it's based off the limit of 0.08g/Km of NOx which was only brought in for diesels by Euro 6b yet Euro 4 for petrols.

So there is no point in going beyond Euro 4 for petrol cars while still letting in Euro 6 diesels and there isn't anything stricter on NOx for diesels *yet*.

If there is going to be any kind of escalation it would be to Euro 7 which is 0.03g/Km for both petrol and diesel...yet is only a proposal due for 2025 and then of course you'd need some leeway, if you consider it would be 4 years same as the ULEZ introduction that would mean an absolute minimum of 2029.

EDIT: Sorry, put 0.8 when meant 0.08.

Edited by Fastdruid on Friday 19th November 19:30

[Philv8s]

I’ve noticed one of my cars is ULEZ compliant everywhere apart from Birmingham. It is a petrol EU4 compliant car but with a private plate which ages it,
I can only assume the cheapskates in Birmingham are just going on the age identifier to select cars for their database which are compliant?
No obvious way to appeal this but not a big deal, just mildly annoying.
Anyone else found this?

[Fastdruid]

Philv8s said:

I’ve noticed one of my cars is ULEZ compliant everywhere apart from Birmingham. It is a petrol EU4 compliant car but with a private plate which ages it,
I can only assume the cheapskates in Birmingham are just going on the age identifier to select cars for their database which are compliant?
No obvious way to appeal this but not a big deal, just mildly annoying.

There is a link at the bottom

"The data accuracy of this service is always improving. If you think the charge result you have received is incorrect" https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/caz

[samoht]

bordseye said:

3/ clearly some pre EURO 4 cars are being allowed - on what data is this being done

Homologation data showing those cars emit less than 0.08 g/km of NOx.

Manufacturers were aware the new regs were coming in in 2006, so will have prepared engines in advance to meet the legal standard, hence cars prior to the enforcement date which are ULEZ-compliant.


Overall I think most neo-classics in the 20-40 year age range aren't only cars and most don't live in ULEZ zones, so can still be kept and enjoyed as second cars.

For instance I have two petrol cars, a '96 and an '07. The latter is my daily so would be my normal choice for any trips into ULEZ cities anyway, so my ownership & enjoyment of the former isn't really affected.

[Cascade360]

Macron said:

Just wait until 2025 when petrol needs to be Euro5.

I'm also slightly confused why anyone would think letting these, in the main, quite dirty old cars, remain in use in a city come what may. And I own several of them, and live on the fringe of what what be a ulez equivalent (in Glasgow).

The majority of them barely do any miles; so they really do not contribute significantly to air pollution or congestion. They should be saved as part of our motoring heritage, and to support a hobby that supports an industry around it.

[Philv8s]

Fastdruid said:

There is a link at the bottom

"The data accuracy of this service is always improving. If you think the charge result you have received is incorrect" https://contact.dvla.gov.uk/caz

Useful, thanks.👍🏻

[ingenieur]

Darinz said:

remember also, ULEZ is only £12.50. For classic cars that's hardly the end of the world if you really want to drive it into a city with a limit.

Even as these inevitably increase and become more like fines, e.g. £100+ if you are going to a show once a year in a city, I'm sure you can manage it alongside all the other costs of classic ownership.

I think it's £27.50 I have to pay if I'm going into town in my 30 yo car.

[ingenieur]

Gooly said:

I've posted about this a few times on the ULEZ thread but it's not got picked up on due to the sheer volume of pointless, puerile bickering between a handful of members.

Motorcyclists have banded together and managed to get someone to open up a testing station in East London. The issue is ULEZ is based on declared NOX emissions (and only NOX - you can have a Euro 3 car that conforms to the Euro 4 NOX standard and it will pass ULEZ), and only cars registered after 1999 have NOX standards declared. There could be many many 90s and even 80s classics that have low enough NOX emissions to pass, but we don't know as they have no emissions declared and neither TFL nor a private garage has stepped up with testing facilities.

Having facilities to test (and therefore potentially go on to retrofit emissions equipment) would save many a roadworthy (and emissions worthy) modern classic and keep them on London's roads. I contacted Modern Classics mag about this but unfortunately they have now closed their doors, and Classic Cars Weekly didn't respond.

There are a fair few 1999 and 2000 cars (including many BMWs) that display a compliant NOX figure on their Certificate of Conformity but not on their V5, which can be made compliant purely with the submission of that CoC. The relevant figure is 0.8 - if yours is under, it passes.

If we had a NOX testing station we could save many 90s classics and possibly many 80s classics too. NOX measured to a Euro 4 standard means sticking a relevant gas analyzing probe up the exhaust during a cold start - this I believe is known as a Type 1 test and is what is referenced in the Consolidated Scheme Order upon which ULEZ is based.

NOX tends to be lower on inefficient, rich, cold running engines. Theres a good chance that people's beloved E30s, 993s, 205 GTIs etc could be made to pass with basic tuning but we need someone / some people to pull together and bite the bullet for the testing station. Post-ULEZ London still has many, many non ULEZ modern classics floating about - there is room yet to save them!

Those outside of London may be able to shrug their shoulders for now but I can guarantee this is coming to almost every major urban area in England within the next 5 years. Birmingham and Bath have already done it and Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield aren't far behind. Clean Air Zones are Britain's motoring future for the next 10 years at least and now is the time to act.

Harry from Harry's garage might be high enough profile to get someone to listen but might struggle to get in touch with him in the first place.

[bordseye]

Philv8s said:

I’ve noticed one of my cars is ULEZ compliant everywhere apart from Birmingham. It is a petrol EU4 compliant car but with a private plate which ages it,
I can only assume the cheapskates in Birmingham are just going on the age identifier to select cars for their database which are compliant?
No obvious way to appeal this but not a big deal, just mildly annoying.
Anyone else found this?

Yes. I found exactly the same with my Ferrari. But the website saying that it wasnt acceptable in Bham was a government one not Bham council.
I wonder if they have run it together with a congestion charge.

[blank]

Gooly said:

I've posted about this a few times on the ULEZ thread but it's not got picked up on due to the sheer volume of pointless, puerile bickering between a handful of members.

Motorcyclists have banded together and managed to get someone to open up a testing station in East London. The issue is ULEZ is based on declared NOX emissions (and only NOX - you can have a Euro 3 car that conforms to the Euro 4 NOX standard and it will pass ULEZ), and only cars registered after 1999 have NOX standards declared. There could be many many 90s and even 80s classics that have low enough NOX emissions to pass, but we don't know as they have no emissions declared and neither TFL nor a private garage has stepped up with testing facilities.

Having facilities to test (and therefore potentially go on to retrofit emissions equipment) would save many a roadworthy (and emissions worthy) modern classic and keep them on London's roads. I contacted Modern Classics mag about this but unfortunately they have now closed their doors, and Classic Cars Weekly didn't respond.

There are a fair few 1999 and 2000 cars (including many BMWs) that display a compliant NOX figure on their Certificate of Conformity but not on their V5, which can be made compliant purely with the submission of that CoC. The relevant figure is 0.8 - if yours is under, it passes.

If we had a NOX testing station we could save many 90s classics and possibly many 80s classics too. NOX measured to a Euro 4 standard means sticking a relevant gas analyzing probe up the exhaust during a cold start - this I believe is known as a Type 1 test and is what is referenced in the Consolidated Scheme Order upon which ULEZ is based.

NOX tends to be lower on inefficient, rich, cold running engines. Theres a good chance that people's beloved E30s, 993s, 205 GTIs etc could be made to pass with basic tuning but we need someone / some people to pull together and bite the bullet for the testing station. Post-ULEZ London still has many, many non ULEZ modern classics floating about - there is room yet to save them!

Those outside of London may be able to shrug their shoulders for now but I can guarantee this is coming to almost every major urban area in England within the next 5 years. Birmingham and Bath have already done it and Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield aren't far behind. Clean Air Zones are Britain's motoring future for the next 10 years at least and now is the time to act.

The problem is to get a figure of g/km for NOx you need to drive an actual emissions test. Which means an emissions Dyno. Which will cost hundreds of thousands, probably millions. There are only a few in the country and they'll be busy doing homologation and development for car manufacturers so not that interested in doing a test for someone to prove their old car can be driven in London.

A test that would also cost at least a couple of grand anyway, so not worth it for low value vehicles.

You could potentially go down a "model report" type route and get owners of the same car to to club together to pay for a test to cover all their cars but quite risky if it fails, and then you'd need someone to prove the cars were actually the same as well.


This is all if you do it properly by the way, following IVA and homologation type processes. TfL can actually accept or reject any evidence they like as it's their own rules.

Not sure what the tests are for bike but I can't imagine the garage doing them has a full motorbike emissions Dyno as these are even rarer than car ones!

[lord trumpton]

If I owned a classic car then the last place I'd be driving at around on a weekend blast is through a city centre.