Wife injured at work, not getting paid

[mdavids]

My wife works for a large supermarket chain. She had to move some empty pallets that had been stored too high and managed to drop them on her foot breaking her little toe.
She couldn't walk on it for a few days and has ended up losing 2 days pay, despite agreeing to use holidays.

Now if she'd taken herself home for something nothing to do with work we'd take this on the chin and just accept it, but because her time off was caused by an avoidable work incident and shes lost pay surely the company has some responsibility? Of course in hindsight she could have asked for some assistance but reality is she's under pressure to complete her tasks as quick as possible so that's not always practical.

Is there any course of action we can take here? Yeah it's only 2 days pay but I feel her manager is being a bit of a dick. I know in my company any accident that results in lost time is thoroughly investigated and we certainly wouldn't lose pay because of it.

[Antony Moxey]

Not trying to be an arse but was she trained in moving such objects and was she wearing the appropriate PPE (steel toe caps, for instance)? If not, she shouldn't have been moving them - the company may even say SHE was negligent, although I might suggest whoever expected her to move them was also too. Hope she's better soon, that must have properly hurt.

[dundarach]

Antony Moxey said:

Not trying to be an arse but was she trained in moving such objects and was she wearing the appropriate PPE (steel toe caps, for instance)? If not, she shouldn't have been moving them - the company may even say SHE was negligent, although I might suggest whoever expected her to move them was also too. Hope she's better soon, that must have properly hurt.

Yes as above, think long and hard (and honestly) about the next steps.

Was she trained?
Why was she moving them?
Was she asked to, by whom?
Did she ask for assistance, who, how, what did they say?
Was this the first time, was it an ongoing issue?
Why was she touching them at all?
Could it have waited?
Could she have asked someone else to help or do it for her?

Next

Who asked her to use holidays?
How was it documented?
What does the absence policy say?

It's endless, however there's a great deal of background information required (honestly) before any conclusions should be drawn.

Sorry just to add, you say 'she could have asked for assistance', sounds to me like that's the answer, she should have done and didn't, harsh but sounds like it was her fault.

However, why did she feel under pressure, what has been documents (not just said), has she ever raised it (documented) not just said, what was done, when and by whom (documented).

Hope she's okay and all that, however this might need to be a warning, if the pressure is genuine and things aren't great, document, ask, document, ask, document, ask....

Edited by dundarach on Thursday 25th November 10:37

[tribalsurfer]

Does she not get paid for holiday ?

[Bob_The_Builder]

Antony Moxey said:

Not trying to be an arse but was she trained in moving such objects and was she wearing the appropriate PPE (steel toe caps, for instance)? If not, she shouldn't have been moving them - the company may even say SHE was negligent, although I might suggest whoever expected her to move them was also too. Hope she's better soon, that must have properly hurt.

So the company asked her to do something (as per op) she was not trained in, yet she is the negligent one??
This will be a repetitive task for which there would be an established procedure and requirements.
If she did not follow procedure and was trained then I can see how it was her fault.
Conversely if training requirements were not met then her supervisor/company would be liable as I expect one of the first lines of procedure would relate to ensuring the person performing the task was suitably trained.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

On the wall of the staff room, or the canteen, or some other employee noticeboard, there should be displayed the Employer's Liability insurance certificate. She needs the name of the insurer, and the policy number, and she needs to contact them with a view to making a claim. Check if you've got any legal cover under your household insurance, and if so, they should take it on for her.

If she chooses to, she could talk to the manager of the supermarket to tell him she intends making and EL claim against them. That might prompt them into being more reasonable. But I would go straight for a claim. Broken bone in the foot, if she hasn't been given all the right training etc, that's worth a couple of grand no problem.

[Antony Moxey]

Bob_The_Builder said:

Antony Moxey said:

Not trying to be an arse but was she trained in moving such objects and was she wearing the appropriate PPE (steel toe caps, for instance)? If not, she shouldn't have been moving them - the company may even say SHE was negligent, although I might suggest whoever expected her to move them was also too. Hope she's better soon, that must have properly hurt.

So the company asked her to do something (as per op) she was not trained in, yet she is the negligent one??
This will be a repetitive task for which there would be an established procedure and requirements.
If she did not follow procedure and was trained then I can see how it was her fault.
Conversely if training requirements were not met then her supervisor/company would be liable as I expect one of the first lines of procedure would relate to ensuring the person performing the task was suitably trained.

Don't know - which is why I said 'may'.

[dundarach]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

On the wall of the staff room, or the canteen, or some other employee noticeboard, there should be displayed the Employer's Liability insurance certificate. She needs the name of the insurer, and the policy number, and she needs to contact them with a view to making a claim. Check if you've got any legal cover under your household insurance, and if so, they should take it on for her.

If she chooses to, she could talk to the manager of the supermarket to tell him she intends making and EL claim against them. That might prompt them into being more reasonable. But I would go straight for a claim. Broken bone in the foot, if she hasn't been given all the right training etc, that's worth a couple of grand no problem.

I wouldn't do any of that first....

[anonymous-user]

dundarach said:

I wouldn't do any of that first....

I would do it if I never wanted to work there again

I wouldn't do it if I wanted to continue with my employment at said establishment.

[mdavids]

Thanks for all replies. For context, she's got a limited amount of time to complete this particular task before the store opens, on this day before she could get started she had to move these pallets out the way that had been stacked too high. I don't know if she's provided with safety shoes as the staff tend to work in the most comfortable shoes they have, being on their feet most of the day.
On the one hand, you could put this down to an unfortunate accident, however I highly doubt they have done safety assessments, provided clear guidance or provided PPE. I certainly wouldn't be going down the claim route for this if her manager had stuck to his agreement to let her use her holiday and get paid as normal. He's went back on that and left us out of pocket so if the company have been negligent I feel justified in making them feel some pain

[jonsp]

Bob_The_Builder said:

So the company asked her to do something (as per op) she was not trained in, yet she is the negligent one??

We don't have confirmation that somebody with the authority to do so (ie her boss) told her to do this, despite her not being trained/equipped to do it.

She may well have taken it upon herself to do it, albeit with the best of intentions. She was just trying to help. But she has agreed to take the time as holiday rather than sick because she accepts she shouldn't have done it in the first place.

[dundarach]

mdavids said:

Thanks for all replies. For context, she's got a limited amount of time to complete this particular task before the store opens, on this day before she could get started she had to move these pallets out the way that had been stacked too high. I don't know if she's provided with safety shoes as the staff tend to work in the most comfortable shoes they have, being on their feet most of the day.
On the one hand, you could put this down to an unfortunate accident, however I highly doubt they have done safety assessments, provided clear guidance or provided PPE. I certainly wouldn't be going down the claim route for this if her manager had stuck to his agreement to let her use her holiday and get paid as normal. He's went back on that and left us out of pocket so if the company have been negligent I feel justified in making them feel some pain

Sadly unless anything is in writing and she wants to stay and enjoys it, move on...

However treat this as a wake up call.

She can now politely ask, via email if possible or in writing on a notice board perhaps??, for guidance on how to move the pallets, training, PPE etc.

If the manager is hopeless it'll be relatively easy to trip them up.....

I'm assuming she has some kind of formal employee review where this will all be documented, she needs to explain the issues and wait for an appropriate response.

If she's moved these pallets, without training, without being asked, she's on her own sadly.

Alternatively, do as has been advised and ask, formally, how to file a claim on the companies insurance. That said, if she acted outside of her training and responsibility, not sure where it'll get you.

Move on - plan - regroup - would be my advice!

[mdavids]

jonsp said:

But she has agreed to take the time as holiday rather than sick because she accepts she shouldn't have done it in the first place.

They didn't even send her home and were very dismissive of the pain she was in, she had to insist she couldn't continue her duties and took herself home. She thought easist way forward was to just use some holiday entitlement to avoid having to fight for sick pay.
Of course in hindsight she shouldn't have attempted to move the pallets, thats easy to say now, less easy when you're on a tight schedule and running with bare minimum of staff levels so help isnt forthcoming.

[essayer]

Did the employer record the accident?

Did your wife see the GP to get a formal record of the injury?

If she gets sick pay or SSP then she should have had this, it's not holiday.

[dundarach]

mdavids said:

They didn't even send her home and were very dismissive of the pain she was in, she had to insist she couldn't continue her duties and took herself home. She thought easist way forward was to just use some holiday entitlement to avoid having to fight for sick pay.
Of course in hindsight she shouldn't have attempted to move the pallets, thats easy to say now, less easy when you're on a tight schedule and running with bare minimum of staff levels so help isnt forthcoming.

Sadly it's often very easy for employees to simply do more and more, in order to get the job done.

Management should notice this, however it can be argued they too are busy.

She NEEDS to document this formally, if she feels she can not do the job being asked of her.

It's not for management I'd argue to make a call on someone's pain, if she's unable to carry out her role, she did the correct thing and went home.

She shouldn't have used holiday, but again management did not make that call.

Yes, she shouldn't have moved the pallets.

What she needs to do really (however it's very easy for me to say this) is not do anything for which she's not trained, supported by colleagues, or has the correct equipment - never ever!

If the store doesn't open, hard cheese!

If she wants to play hard ball, I'd not open, document why, wait for advice from manager.

I'd hope he chucks a wobble and says something really stupid like - 'you move the pallets or you're sacked' at which point his belly is exposed and I'd be in for the kill....well in reality I'd milk the situation a little, ask for more help and adjustments, be overly awkward, go off to the docs on stress and injuries and then seek a settlement agreement \ unfair dismissal....

And yes as above - ask for a copy of the accident book

Edited by dundarach on Thursday 25th November 11:52

[Sheepshanks]

mdavids said:

Yeah it's only 2 days pay....

Is her foot healed and she's fully OK now?

For two days pay it doesn't seem worth the hassle. One of my daughters dropped a pack of CDs on her foot while pulling them off a high shelf and broke a metatarsal - it really messed up her time in uni and her foot bothers her years later. She wouldn't hear of taking action - said it was her own stupid fault.

[jonsp]

mdavids said:

when you're on a tight schedule and running with bare minimum of staff levels so help isnt forthcoming.

Right. Totally sympathise with your Mrs, she was just trying to do her job. Management were well aware that to keep things moving during busy times people regularly move pallets etc despite not being trained/equipped. Of course most of the time injury doesn't result so no harm done.

Problem is the company will deny this - we'd never expect anyone to do a job they're not trained to do and we're shocked/saddened that she took it upon herself to do this with resultant injury. We provide comprehensive training (look here's our training manual etc) precisely to ensure incidents like this don't happen. This is evidenced by the minimal number of accidents in the warehouse, a safety record of which we're very proud.

Think of worst case. She takes a stand and they hold an investigation - the outcome of which is she's fired for gross misconduct. She knowingly put herself at risk in direct contravention of the training/instruction she has received.

[abzmike]

essayer said:

Did the employer record the accident?

Did your wife see the GP to get a formal record of the injury?

If she gets sick pay or SSP then she should have had this, it's not holiday.

Isn't this the primary issue? She isn't able to work through illness/injury casued at work.. Self certify or get GP line for sick days - There should be no questions asked from the employer.
There coudl be an HSE issue but that can come afterwards.

[mickyh7]

First thing she needs to do is ask for some Safety Shoes, gloves and a Hard Hat.
Without all of those, Management will not have a care about a claim going in.
Move on and learn.
Oh, and look for a nicer place to work.

[mdavids]

mickyh7 said:

Oh, and look for a nicer place to work.

They're generally pretty good, and managers tend to get rotated between stores after a couple of years so it's not worth cutting off nose to spite face for the sake of 2 days pay. Based on what she's told me, previous managers would have no issue paying her, but this one is being a prick about it.
It's not like she's asked for sick pay, she's offered to give up her holidays, yet he'd rather make her suffer and literally add insult to injury