BTL - End of tenancy issues (advice)
Discussion
My current tenant has now departed and I'm left calculating the amount to be taken from the deposit (first time I've ever had to do this), I was wondering if the minds of PH might have some views:
- Professional clean didn't happen (contractual) - this transpired as hours of personal effort to clean for the tenant switchover
- Sofa damaged, given the damage I will need to dispose of this now
- Multiple broken items left, chest of drawers / desk / shelving unit
I will arrange on Monday for the broken items to be removed from the property and charge this directly to the bond - the bond / deposit is with the UK Gov approved deposit agency.
I'm unsure of how to approximate the other costs, is there a 'standard' i should be using?
Any help / advice much appreciated.
- Professional clean didn't happen (contractual) - this transpired as hours of personal effort to clean for the tenant switchover
- Sofa damaged, given the damage I will need to dispose of this now
- Multiple broken items left, chest of drawers / desk / shelving unit
I will arrange on Monday for the broken items to be removed from the property and charge this directly to the bond - the bond / deposit is with the UK Gov approved deposit agency.
I'm unsure of how to approximate the other costs, is there a 'standard' i should be using?
Any help / advice much appreciated.
That’s a lot of damage - this is the worst part of being a landlord. Without knowing the amount of deposit held, or photos of the damage, if it was me I’d hold all of it back.
The only standard to judge this against will be the invigilator’s view, who will work for the deposit company. Should the tenant challenge it, they have one opportunity to submit why they think this is unreasonable, and the invigilator decides if it’s fair.
Take lots of photos and hopefully you have kept receipts of when you bought the items damaged. If you haven’t, then value them reasonably. You can claim for someone to do the clean, and for someone to re-fit the shelves etc even if you end up doing it yourself, because you shouldn’t be expected to do it all yourself.
The only standard to judge this against will be the invigilator’s view, who will work for the deposit company. Should the tenant challenge it, they have one opportunity to submit why they think this is unreasonable, and the invigilator decides if it’s fair.
Take lots of photos and hopefully you have kept receipts of when you bought the items damaged. If you haven’t, then value them reasonably. You can claim for someone to do the clean, and for someone to re-fit the shelves etc even if you end up doing it yourself, because you shouldn’t be expected to do it all yourself.
brickwall said:
The standard is your actual costs to repair or replace on a like-for-like basis. Photograph and receipt everything in case it goes to dispute.
Not sure how you deal with the personal cleaning effort - will be hard to justify your own hourly rate or evidence the hours put in. Why didn’t you just get the cleaners?
Thanks for the feedback, everything is photographed and I also have the inspection / checkout report so hopefully that will help my case. I only didn't get a cleaner as the new tenants moved in the next day (so I didn't have time to arrange) - trust me that would have been a preferable outcome.Not sure how you deal with the personal cleaning effort - will be hard to justify your own hourly rate or evidence the hours put in. Why didn’t you just get the cleaners?
JezHill said:
That’s a lot of damage - this is the worst part of being a landlord. Without knowing the amount of deposit held, or photos of the damage, if it was me I’d hold all of it back.
The only standard to judge this against will be the invigilator’s view, who will work for the deposit company. Should the tenant challenge it, they have one opportunity to submit why they think this is unreasonable, and the invigilator decides if it’s fair.
Take lots of photos and hopefully you have kept receipts of when you bought the items damaged. If you haven’t, then value them reasonably. You can claim for someone to do the clean, and for someone to re-fit the shelves etc even if you end up doing it yourself, because you shouldn’t be expected to do it all yourself.
Thanks @ JezHill - the joys of being a landlord, sigh. I'm thinking the damage / removal of goods will probably be no more than half of the deposit, i'm not looking to make anything from this, just resolve the issues and not be out of pocket. The tenant has now left the country The only standard to judge this against will be the invigilator’s view, who will work for the deposit company. Should the tenant challenge it, they have one opportunity to submit why they think this is unreasonable, and the invigilator decides if it’s fair.
Take lots of photos and hopefully you have kept receipts of when you bought the items damaged. If you haven’t, then value them reasonably. You can claim for someone to do the clean, and for someone to re-fit the shelves etc even if you end up doing it yourself, because you shouldn’t be expected to do it all yourself.
I meant to add, as the tenant left the flat earlier than the end of the lease, they also contacted the energy and water suppliers to tell them they'd left - so I now need to contact them to confirm this. Obviously there are the standing charges.
Its not clear if the tenant did the same with the council tax but I shall have to contact them to confirm the lease was still active.
Again, I don't see why I should pick up the tab (the rent was paid throughout).
Its not clear if the tenant did the same with the council tax but I shall have to contact them to confirm the lease was still active.
Again, I don't see why I should pick up the tab (the rent was paid throughout).
mark seeker said:
- Professional clean didn't happen (contractual) - this transpired as hours of personal effort to clean for the tenant switchover
You may have trouble with this one as IIRC professional cleaning clauses are no longer enforceable. That said, presumably you have photos from the handover showing that it wasn't as clean as when the tenants moved in?Do you have a check in report and photos?
If there is no evidence of the state of the building/items prior to occupancy the check out report is meaningless.
The tenant could claim that they were like it on arrival?
And fair wear and tear must be considered. After 3 years a repaint and carpet clean would be normally expected, so the cost should not be deducted off the deposit?
If there is no evidence of the state of the building/items prior to occupancy the check out report is meaningless.
The tenant could claim that they were like it on arrival?
And fair wear and tear must be considered. After 3 years a repaint and carpet clean would be normally expected, so the cost should not be deducted off the deposit?
I bought an ebook guide to winning deposit disputes, I found it very useful and subsequently won my only ever formal deposit claim (over £2,500).
It is available here, without it I would have made a mess of the whole thing.
Please note I have no connection with the site or author, just genuinely found it very helpful.
It is available here, without it I would have made a mess of the whole thing.
Please note I have no connection with the site or author, just genuinely found it very helpful.
ConnectionError said:
Do you have a check in report and photos?
If there is no evidence of the state of the building/items prior to occupancy the check out report is meaningless.
The tenant could claim that they were like it on arrival?
And fair wear and tear must be considered. After 3 years a repaint and carpet clean would be normally expected, so the cost should not be deducted off the deposit?
I have the check-in and checkout reports and the differences, its more the cleaning / dirty stains left. The flat was professionally cleaned when they took the flat, the contract states that only if there was a pet is a professional clean require (the tenant had a dog) - I guessed it would be enforceable but maybe that isn't the case.If there is no evidence of the state of the building/items prior to occupancy the check out report is meaningless.
The tenant could claim that they were like it on arrival?
And fair wear and tear must be considered. After 3 years a repaint and carpet clean would be normally expected, so the cost should not be deducted off the deposit?
Edited by mark seeker on Monday 29th November 21:52
Unless you can agree deductions with your tenant then you might struggle. If you can’t agree then you’ll need to go to arbitration with who ever is holding the bond. They’ll claim to listen to both sides but in my experience they seem to favour the tenant.
We’ve had one a few years ago, £100’s in damage but got pence back.
If you can’t agree costs with the tenant chalk it down to experience and move on. The replacement items will go into your accounts so you might get a win there.
Good luck.
We’ve had one a few years ago, £100’s in damage but got pence back.
If you can’t agree costs with the tenant chalk it down to experience and move on. The replacement items will go into your accounts so you might get a win there.
Good luck.
When I moved out of my rental it needed a ‘pet’ clean (2 cats)
The guy was there 1 hour to do ~ 1500sqft with a Numatic George.
Having done such work before his £120 quote seemed fine, I spent most of the afternoon on one room...
But yeah, £120 for one hour.
But it ticked a box. £120/hr box.
So don’t put much into having it professionally cleaned... more like expensive box ticking.
On the deposit, we got ours back. But a £250 chunk of money has been kept back for 3 months “because pets“, so any issues arising they can dispute that chunk.
It’d definitely be worth seeing if you can add that clause for your future tenants.
In any case. It seems you got off lightly given what I’ve read and seen.
The guy was there 1 hour to do ~ 1500sqft with a Numatic George.
Having done such work before his £120 quote seemed fine, I spent most of the afternoon on one room...
But yeah, £120 for one hour.
But it ticked a box. £120/hr box.
So don’t put much into having it professionally cleaned... more like expensive box ticking.
On the deposit, we got ours back. But a £250 chunk of money has been kept back for 3 months “because pets“, so any issues arising they can dispute that chunk.
It’d definitely be worth seeing if you can add that clause for your future tenants.
In any case. It seems you got off lightly given what I’ve read and seen.
I really don't understand why some people mistreat a rented property.
We recently rented, at £1,250/month, a 4-bedroom house for 22 months when we were between houses.
When we left the 2 sisters who owned the house commented it was in better condition than we moved in. I had carried out a few small repairs & my wife had sorted out the garden.
The sisters refunded the last month's rent (we were in the house for less than half that month) & the deposit was in our bank account
two days later. They sent us a card the next Xmas! They also bought our cooker off us as it was in better condition than the one in the property that I had moved into the garage.
Taking care of the property certainly worked to our advantage.
We recently rented, at £1,250/month, a 4-bedroom house for 22 months when we were between houses.
When we left the 2 sisters who owned the house commented it was in better condition than we moved in. I had carried out a few small repairs & my wife had sorted out the garden.
The sisters refunded the last month's rent (we were in the house for less than half that month) & the deposit was in our bank account
two days later. They sent us a card the next Xmas! They also bought our cooker off us as it was in better condition than the one in the property that I had moved into the garage.
Taking care of the property certainly worked to our advantage.
Glosphil said:
I really don't understand why some people mistreat a rented property.
We recently rented, at £1,250/month, a 4-bedroom house for 22 months when we were between houses.
When we left the 2 sisters who owned the house commented it was in better condition than we moved in. I had carried out a few small repairs & my wife had sorted out the garden.
The sisters refunded the last month's rent (we were in the house for less than half that month) & the deposit was in our bank account
two days later. They sent us a card the next Xmas! They also bought our cooker off us as it was in better condition than the one in the property that I had moved into the garage.
Taking care of the property certainly worked to our advantage.
It's been a while since I rented, but too often the landlords provided the property in a less than satisfactory condition, but expected it immaculate on return. We recently rented, at £1,250/month, a 4-bedroom house for 22 months when we were between houses.
When we left the 2 sisters who owned the house commented it was in better condition than we moved in. I had carried out a few small repairs & my wife had sorted out the garden.
The sisters refunded the last month's rent (we were in the house for less than half that month) & the deposit was in our bank account
two days later. They sent us a card the next Xmas! They also bought our cooker off us as it was in better condition than the one in the property that I had moved into the garage.
Taking care of the property certainly worked to our advantage.
A group of us had to work away from home and we all let places. Everyone was finding faults as soon as they moved in. Nearly everyone had issues with their landlord or letting agent on exit trying to claim as much money back as possible.
Things that were already damaged, logged as missing from the start, or already significantly down their shelf life were claimed for. Some paid for cleaners to come in and they made a good job. Their agents still claimed the property wasn't clean.
I do agree some people don't take care of the properties, but equally there is too many landlords and letting agents taking advantage or have unreasonable expectations.
I'd be interested to see why the OP has to claim for things like a new sofa. How old is the sofa? What condition was it in before the last occupier lasted 2.5 years?
.
mark seeker said:
- Professional clean didn't happen (contractual) - this transpired as hours of personal effort to clean for the tenant switchover
As others have said you will never be able to claim for your time for this, either from deposit or as an expense. Personally I pay for a clean at the start of every tenancy. It costs about £150 for a 2 bed flat and is a deductible expense. mark seeker said:
- Sofa damaged, given the damage I will need to dispose of this now
The deposit schemes will decide what the life of a sofa is and give you pro rata this. They in general look for any reason to deduct from landlord claims, so do not be surprised if they say a sofa lasts for 2-3 years or something... and you get £50.mark seeker said:
- Multiple broken items left, chest of drawers / desk / shelving unit
Not worth the agro of attempting to claim IMHO, if you get a VAT registered waste disposal type registered company to do it, you might get the cost returned. I just smash them up and take to the tip I dont take deposits anymore, as they are not worth the risk. Make "tenant liability insurance" a condition of the tenancy and charge 10% more per month rent than equivalent deposit properties. Decent agents will offer it to the tenant its not hugely expensive.
nikaiyo2 said:
I dont take deposits anymore, as they are not worth the risk. Make "tenant liability insurance" a condition of the tenancy and charge 10% more per month rent than equivalent deposit properties. Decent agents will offer it to the tenant its not hugely expensive.
Interesting idea. Have you ever had to claim from the insurance company - did you find it easier or harder than negotiating with a deposit scheme?My other worry would be adverse selection in tenants, i.e. the tenant that doesn't want to (or can't) put down a deposit is more likely to cause problems?
NickCQ said:
Interesting idea. Have you ever had to claim from the insurance company - did you find it easier or harder than negotiating with a deposit scheme?
My other worry would be adverse selection in tenants, i.e. the tenant that doesn't want to (or can't) put down a deposit is more likely to cause problems?
Yeah claimed once, and had no issues at all, it was for a door to a bathroom that was fine on check in and had a huge hole in it on check out, now most internal doors are cheap as chips. My other worry would be adverse selection in tenants, i.e. the tenant that doesn't want to (or can't) put down a deposit is more likely to cause problems?
Unless of course the doors in the flat are a random size that appears to be a "made to order" size, it cost about £1200 to replace! I am not sure what I would have done had the insurance not been there as I would have felt very uncomfortable asking for that from a tenant who was a really nice guy and it was very clearly accidental damage.
Saying that I dont try to "nickle & dime" tenants I have never tried to claim for cleaning at tend of tenancy or anything like that, to me that's just an expense of the business that the rent paid covers.
I always let through a good agent and we only take tenants that pass all the referencing, all my places are in nice areas so finding good tenants is never a huge issue. Most never even get listed on Rightmove as the agents have enough people on their books so to speak.
It does make life easier for a lot of tenants who might struggle to find the deposit prior to getting their last one back.
Some tenants have queried it, its about £120 a year and gives them really good contents cover, its also amazing how many people think that the landlords insurance will cover their contents, when obviously it wont.
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