Manchester Arena bombing: Honesty and telling it like it is.
Discussion
Not much else you can add to that really.
BBC News - Manchester Arena Inquiry: Bomb response shameful, says victim's dad
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-5...
To Quote Andrew Roussos
"The response on that night was shameful and inadequate. The people that excuse it should feel shame."
"The response of the security services should go down in history as one of the worst failures from start to finish"
He's absolutely bang on including the bit where he said I've never heard so many excuses
Pathetic responses and shenanigans from the 'powers that be'
Googleing "2 hours for a Kebab Manchester arena" tells you enough.
BBC News - Manchester Arena Inquiry: Bomb response shameful, says victim's dad
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-5...
To Quote Andrew Roussos
"The response on that night was shameful and inadequate. The people that excuse it should feel shame."
"The response of the security services should go down in history as one of the worst failures from start to finish"
He's absolutely bang on including the bit where he said I've never heard so many excuses
Pathetic responses and shenanigans from the 'powers that be'
Googleing "2 hours for a Kebab Manchester arena" tells you enough.
No one even likes to hear it these days just look at how many replies your post got.
They would prefer to bury their heads in the sand and pretend it never happened rather than face up to the difficult questions or accept some responsibility for it.
Welcome to the public sector blob of closing ranks, putting careers and there pensions ahead of the public interests.
A complete waste of an enquiry that will achieve absolutely nothing as we have seen from the identical response to the two more recent terrorist attacks.
No lessons have been learned what so ever.
They would prefer to bury their heads in the sand and pretend it never happened rather than face up to the difficult questions or accept some responsibility for it.
Welcome to the public sector blob of closing ranks, putting careers and there pensions ahead of the public interests.
A complete waste of an enquiry that will achieve absolutely nothing as we have seen from the identical response to the two more recent terrorist attacks.
No lessons have been learned what so ever.
I agree that the enquiry is a waste of money.
But in terms of the response, yes it looks bad from one victims point of view but if you zoom out a bit, what is reasonable to expect?
A major incident with hundreds injured and many dying and he expects an 8 minute response time to every casualty? In this specific case, the casualty got to the trauma dept in 52 minutes.
A much faster response was never going to happen - there aren’t hundreds of ambulances and doctors etc ready for Immediate deployment all of the time and that would not be an appropriate response either…. So whilst it is extremely sad on an individual level, it’s hard to find much blame on the shoulders of the ambulances etc in the middle of a major incident.
I’m personally much more concerned when I see response times longer than the above when there isn’t a bomb blast going on.
But in terms of the response, yes it looks bad from one victims point of view but if you zoom out a bit, what is reasonable to expect?
A major incident with hundreds injured and many dying and he expects an 8 minute response time to every casualty? In this specific case, the casualty got to the trauma dept in 52 minutes.
A much faster response was never going to happen - there aren’t hundreds of ambulances and doctors etc ready for Immediate deployment all of the time and that would not be an appropriate response either…. So whilst it is extremely sad on an individual level, it’s hard to find much blame on the shoulders of the ambulances etc in the middle of a major incident.
I’m personally much more concerned when I see response times longer than the above when there isn’t a bomb blast going on.
I've not read the report, so can't comment meaningfully yet.
But I recall from the inquiry itself, the company responsible for event security also failed pretty badly.
Who aren't part of the public sector "blob" (whatever that is) and probably have miniscule pensions to worry about.
So taken more widely, it would seem Manu parts of the UK -regardless of sector- weren't prepared for a terrorist attack.
Will lessons be learned? Hopefully, but it will be expensive (or city of London ring of steel) and have to be paid for.
But I recall from the inquiry itself, the company responsible for event security also failed pretty badly.
Who aren't part of the public sector "blob" (whatever that is) and probably have miniscule pensions to worry about.
So taken more widely, it would seem Manu parts of the UK -regardless of sector- weren't prepared for a terrorist attack.
Will lessons be learned? Hopefully, but it will be expensive (or city of London ring of steel) and have to be paid for.
A two hour break isn't unreasonable- doesn't everyone get the same?
Also those kebabs were really heavy & required 2 people to carry them.
Whe the enquiry decides that nobody did anything wrong this will prove how well everything was run; people can be assured of how well their tax money is spent & how well they're protected.
Also those kebabs were really heavy & required 2 people to carry them.
Whe the enquiry decides that nobody did anything wrong this will prove how well everything was run; people can be assured of how well their tax money is spent & how well they're protected.
I’m not seeing any pertinent facts in the article, only lots of anger from someone who lost a child. It’s very sad for them, but they are not in a position to make an educated assessment of what happened.
As the enquiry has not published its findings I’m not sure how anyone can make a judgment. There seems to simply be a lot of armchair experts judging after the fact with zero experience of the reality of dealing with major incidents, or even the day to day reality of the emergency services.
As the enquiry has not published its findings I’m not sure how anyone can make a judgment. There seems to simply be a lot of armchair experts judging after the fact with zero experience of the reality of dealing with major incidents, or even the day to day reality of the emergency services.
Edited by Electro1980 on Tuesday 30th November 07:21
Electro1980 said:
I’m not seeing any pertinent facts in the article, only lots of anger from someone who lost a child. It’s very sad for them, but they are not in a position to make an educated assessment of what happened.
Yikes. Maybe not a dispassionate assessment, but I suspect they've had a very cruel and illuminating education on the subject.There were some individual failings across all the organisations involved
There were also systematic and organisational failings across all the organisations involved and a distinct lack of a leadership particularly in the Fire Service and GMP (which led in no small part to the CC being replaced )!
Two officers from BTP sneaking off to Rusholme for a kebab is a great headline but really wasn’t the “big” story and whilst regrettable and unprofessional is unlikely to have had any affect on the outcome or casualty numbers
The significant failures were before … in failing to identify the offender and stop the attack, whether this would have been possible is unquantifiable
And more significantly after … where organisations failed to respond effectively, notably the senior leadership in BTP/GMP/NWAS/GMFRS where the organisational response was fractured, slow and inadequate
Notwithstanding that certain first responders notably the Sgt from GMP TAU and the GMP Night Inspector were singled out for their excellence on the night, whilst the GMP Senior officer a Supt, and the FIRE senior were pilloried for their failures and the Supt should have been sacked on the spot
From the private security and venue, through all the emergency services there were failings to me most notably the holding back of emergency medical treatment at the scene
The enquiry has been a hard watch and very sad
My view is that the emergency services outside London are ill equipped to deal with mass casualty terrorist events and lack the experience and resources to deal with one
There were also systematic and organisational failings across all the organisations involved and a distinct lack of a leadership particularly in the Fire Service and GMP (which led in no small part to the CC being replaced )!
Two officers from BTP sneaking off to Rusholme for a kebab is a great headline but really wasn’t the “big” story and whilst regrettable and unprofessional is unlikely to have had any affect on the outcome or casualty numbers
The significant failures were before … in failing to identify the offender and stop the attack, whether this would have been possible is unquantifiable
And more significantly after … where organisations failed to respond effectively, notably the senior leadership in BTP/GMP/NWAS/GMFRS where the organisational response was fractured, slow and inadequate
Notwithstanding that certain first responders notably the Sgt from GMP TAU and the GMP Night Inspector were singled out for their excellence on the night, whilst the GMP Senior officer a Supt, and the FIRE senior were pilloried for their failures and the Supt should have been sacked on the spot
From the private security and venue, through all the emergency services there were failings to me most notably the holding back of emergency medical treatment at the scene
The enquiry has been a hard watch and very sad
My view is that the emergency services outside London are ill equipped to deal with mass casualty terrorist events and lack the experience and resources to deal with one
dundarach said:
Why should it cost the public sector a penny to organise, manage and secure a private event?
We're on about the response to the incident.You know the one where the fire service sat round the corner for 2 hours.
That public sector organisation.
Much of the public sector response seems to have been born out of a Fred Carnos movie with some personal exceptions
It takes one ambulance for one victim. This should tell you something about the insuperable problems the local ambulance service had.
I've no criticisms of those who flagged down a 'passing ambulance', presumably one on its way to an RV point. However, it did nothing other than take a response from someone else. The child was going to die, according to the crew, given the seriousness of injuries.
Roussos did not say it like it was, he gave an emotional response.
In such a major incident, there are protocols in the emergency services. The ambulance service takes ambulances from other areas and those other areas fill some of their gaps with others from outside their area. It is the same with the fire service. The police had a similar system where a minimum number of officers are left to patrol an area and the rest move over. Unfortunately, these minimum numbers are now not reached all the time, so there are no 'spare' officers. I know that the same goes for both the ambulance and fire services in that there are no tactical reserves. We read in the papers and see on the news of people waiting for ambulances for over an hour, and then the ambulance being used as a ward bed. What does Roussos expect when there are 50+ casualties?
I feel for him. No parent should outlive their child. But he's telling us how he feels, and not the problems that the emergency services have to deal with.
My old force, together with the Met, dealt with armed terrorsts within 8 minutes. That's London for you. Go away from the big smoke and it's different. No resources back in my day for such an incident, and since then there've been cutback after cutback. Deadwood is not the proper term for what's been cut.
I've no criticisms of those who flagged down a 'passing ambulance', presumably one on its way to an RV point. However, it did nothing other than take a response from someone else. The child was going to die, according to the crew, given the seriousness of injuries.
Roussos did not say it like it was, he gave an emotional response.
In such a major incident, there are protocols in the emergency services. The ambulance service takes ambulances from other areas and those other areas fill some of their gaps with others from outside their area. It is the same with the fire service. The police had a similar system where a minimum number of officers are left to patrol an area and the rest move over. Unfortunately, these minimum numbers are now not reached all the time, so there are no 'spare' officers. I know that the same goes for both the ambulance and fire services in that there are no tactical reserves. We read in the papers and see on the news of people waiting for ambulances for over an hour, and then the ambulance being used as a ward bed. What does Roussos expect when there are 50+ casualties?
I feel for him. No parent should outlive their child. But he's telling us how he feels, and not the problems that the emergency services have to deal with.
My old force, together with the Met, dealt with armed terrorsts within 8 minutes. That's London for you. Go away from the big smoke and it's different. No resources back in my day for such an incident, and since then there've been cutback after cutback. Deadwood is not the proper term for what's been cut.
There were no shortages of ambulances responding to or standing by outside the scene Derek, nor firefighters trained in first aid
Decisions were taken at Command level not to deploy them
That was the failing
The reasons given were myriad but basically boil down to a lack of dynamic decision making and an unwillingness to make a decision by those in Command and commit the resources into the scene
That is the tragedy here
Decisions were taken at Command level not to deploy them
That was the failing
The reasons given were myriad but basically boil down to a lack of dynamic decision making and an unwillingness to make a decision by those in Command and commit the resources into the scene
That is the tragedy here
Earthdweller said:
There were no shortages of ambulances responding to or standing by outside the scene Derek, nor firefighters trained in first aid
Decisions were taken at Command level not to deploy them
That was the failing
The reasons given were myriad but basically boil down to a lack of dynamic decision making and an unwillingness to make a decision by those in Command and commit the resources into the scene
That is the tragedy here
One wonders why. Decisions were taken at Command level not to deploy them
That was the failing
The reasons given were myriad but basically boil down to a lack of dynamic decision making and an unwillingness to make a decision by those in Command and commit the resources into the scene
That is the tragedy here
I think some people think that the conversation went:
"Shall we let those ambulances do their job"?
"Nah, its just kids, another biscuit?"
I would imagine that the reality was rather different. At a guess they have a procedure to ensure that the place is vaguely safe before committing a whole load of people to it. If there had been bomber 2, who had blown up half of the paramedics in the area, that would have been even worse.
It is really easy to sit here with hindsight and say "yeah, how could they not have known it was just one bomber", or "how could they not know it was a bomber at all".
The only person responsible for this is the dick who blew himself up. Does anyone really think that 2 coppers getting a kebab (or not) would have made the slightest difference to the outcome?
Biggy Stardust said:
dundarach said:
Why should it cost the public sector a penny to organise, manage and secure a private event?
I suspect that their funding comes from the tax such events generate.rxe said:
Earthdweller said:
There were no shortages of ambulances responding to or standing by outside the scene Derek, nor firefighters trained in first aid
Decisions were taken at Command level not to deploy them
That was the failing
The reasons given were myriad but basically boil down to a lack of dynamic decision making and an unwillingness to make a decision by those in Command and commit the resources into the scene
That is the tragedy here
One wonders why. Decisions were taken at Command level not to deploy them
That was the failing
The reasons given were myriad but basically boil down to a lack of dynamic decision making and an unwillingness to make a decision by those in Command and commit the resources into the scene
That is the tragedy here
I think some people think that the conversation went:
"Shall we let those ambulances do their job"?
"Nah, its just kids, another biscuit?"
I would imagine that the reality was rather different. At a guess they have a procedure to ensure that the place is vaguely safe before committing a whole load of people to it. If there had been bomber 2, who had blown up half of the paramedics in the area, that would have been even worse.
It is really easy to sit here with hindsight and say "yeah, how could they not have known it was just one bomber", or "how could they not know it was a bomber at all".
The only person responsible for this is the dick who blew himself up. Does anyone really think that 2 coppers getting a kebab (or not) would have made the slightest difference to the outcome?
Secondary devices
Marauding multiple terrorists
Further attacks etc
And the doctrine that those within the concourse were already victims and written off as such, the responsibility being to ensure no further victims and be able to deal effectively with further events
Callous as it may seem
As we know now, there were none
As you say that’s hindsight for ya
As I said myriad reasons why emergency medical care wasn’t deployed immediately
I was countering Derek’s point .. it wasn’t due to a lack of ambulances
Interesting comments from this officer among the first on scene
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/great...
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/great...
Earthdweller said:
rxe said:
Earthdweller said:
There were no shortages of ambulances responding to or standing by outside the scene Derek, nor firefighters trained in first aid
Decisions were taken at Command level not to deploy them
That was the failing
The reasons given were myriad but basically boil down to a lack of dynamic decision making and an unwillingness to make a decision by those in Command and commit the resources into the scene
That is the tragedy here
One wonders why. Decisions were taken at Command level not to deploy them
That was the failing
The reasons given were myriad but basically boil down to a lack of dynamic decision making and an unwillingness to make a decision by those in Command and commit the resources into the scene
That is the tragedy here
I think some people think that the conversation went:
"Shall we let those ambulances do their job"?
"Nah, its just kids, another biscuit?"
I would imagine that the reality was rather different. At a guess they have a procedure to ensure that the place is vaguely safe before committing a whole load of people to it. If there had been bomber 2, who had blown up half of the paramedics in the area, that would have been even worse.
It is really easy to sit here with hindsight and say "yeah, how could they not have known it was just one bomber", or "how could they not know it was a bomber at all".
The only person responsible for this is the dick who blew himself up. Does anyone really think that 2 coppers getting a kebab (or not) would have made the slightest difference to the outcome?
Secondary devices
Marauding multiple terrorists
Further attacks etc
And the doctrine that those within the concourse were already victims and written off as such, the responsibility being to ensure no further victims and be able to deal effectively with further events
Callous as it may seem
As we know now, there were none
As you say that’s hindsight for ya
As I said myriad reasons why emergency medical care wasn’t deployed immediately
I was countering Derek’s point .. it wasn’t due to a lack of ambulances
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