Europe's biggest Fighter Jet acquisition
Discussion
Since 2005, Finland has been looking for options to replace it's fleet of F/A18 C/D Hornets.
Budget is 10 Billion Euros and Finland is looking for a like for like replacement batch of 64 Fighters, though there is scope for some small variation. Not all bids are open source so numbers are approximate.
The following companies have offered Best and Final Offers in Summer of 2020:
Saab with their Gripen E/F and additionally 2 Globaleye AWAC assets. (pic is of a Swedish 'E' model in Helsinki in 2021)
|https://thumbsnap.com/LiyUbruQ[/url]
Boeing with the F-18 E/F Super Hornet and the G model Growler (Pic is of two Growler variants at Jyväskylä in 2019)
Dassault are offering their Rafale in a specific Finnish variant. (Pic is from Kauhava in 2020)
[url]
The Eurofighter Typhoon is being offered via the British company BAE. Pic is at Kaivopuisto in 2021.
Lockheed Martin are offering their F-35 Lightning II 'A' model Pic is of an Italian A model at Kaivopuisto 2021.
A decision will be made before the end of the year, with early rumours suggesting the F-35 is favourite to win. The winning bid will be submitted to the government who still have an option to alter the result. Delivery of aircraft should begin in 2025 with the legacy Hornets being phased out by 2030.
Budget is 10 Billion Euros and Finland is looking for a like for like replacement batch of 64 Fighters, though there is scope for some small variation. Not all bids are open source so numbers are approximate.
The following companies have offered Best and Final Offers in Summer of 2020:
Saab with their Gripen E/F and additionally 2 Globaleye AWAC assets. (pic is of a Swedish 'E' model in Helsinki in 2021)
|https://thumbsnap.com/LiyUbruQ[/url]Boeing with the F-18 E/F Super Hornet and the G model Growler (Pic is of two Growler variants at Jyväskylä in 2019)
Dassault are offering their Rafale in a specific Finnish variant. (Pic is from Kauhava in 2020)
[url]The Eurofighter Typhoon is being offered via the British company BAE. Pic is at Kaivopuisto in 2021.
Lockheed Martin are offering their F-35 Lightning II 'A' model Pic is of an Italian A model at Kaivopuisto 2021.
A decision will be made before the end of the year, with early rumours suggesting the F-35 is favourite to win. The winning bid will be submitted to the government who still have an option to alter the result. Delivery of aircraft should begin in 2025 with the legacy Hornets being phased out by 2030.
Taita said:
I am curious how many plans Dassault and Saab actually sell - who are their main nation customers? Seems like planet is either Boeing/BAE or 'Generic Russian' type of jets?
Quite a few foreign rafale operators.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale?wpro...
Same with the gripen (U.K. even has one)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen?w...
El stovey said:
Taita said:
I am curious how many plans Dassault and Saab actually sell - who are their main nation customers? Seems like planet is either Boeing/BAE or 'Generic Russian' type of jets?
Quite a few foreign rafale operators.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale?wpro...
Same with the gripen (U.K. even has one)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen?w...
LimaDelta said:
Why would they not pick the JSF? It is the most capable, and only true 5th-gen on the list, and in terms of interoperability with NATO air forces it makes the most sense.
Cost and ease of operation and maintenance mainly plus other linked politics and aid deals. Plus if it’s your only (or main) aircraft, you might want something that’s been around a bit longer with a more known reliability record.
Or do you mean Finland specifically? I’d expect them to go for it too but there might be some other regional politics at play.
As per above, why would they not choose the F35?
The Eurofighter is still a very capable aircraft, and as a purely defensive air interception and anti-armour multi-role aircraft it certainly has its merits if the price is right.
Politically, does the Gripen have any high ground?
The Eurofighter is still a very capable aircraft, and as a purely defensive air interception and anti-armour multi-role aircraft it certainly has its merits if the price is right.
Politically, does the Gripen have any high ground?
Eric Mc said:
Why do people insist on using the term "Fighter Jet"?
Just asking.
Because it's sexier than Multirole Fastjet Combat aircraft?Just asking.
s off pedants.El stovey said:
Cost and ease of operation and maintenance mainly plus other linked politics and aid deals.
Plus if it’s your only (or main) aircraft, you might want something that’s been around a bit longer with a more known reliability record.
Or do you mean Finland specifically? I’d expect them to go for it too but there might be some other regional politics at play.
This is the surprising factor, purchasing the F-35 will be seen as an end to "Finlandization" the political tightrope that Finland have successfully walked which allowed them to resist becoming absorbed into the USSR's sphere of influence despite having been defeated in a land war against Soviet Russia and having to cede territory. Plus if it’s your only (or main) aircraft, you might want something that’s been around a bit longer with a more known reliability record.
Or do you mean Finland specifically? I’d expect them to go for it too but there might be some other regional politics at play.
Finland has traditionally purchased arms from both blocs (they famously flew a mixed fleet of Sab Draken and MiG 21).
Russia has actively resisted the growth of NATO against its borders (which to be fair was agreed by treaty) so this purchase really closes the door in Russias face and fully opens the country to closer relations with the USA. I would still be surprised to see Finland join NATO any time soon.
In choosing the new fighter, one major factor has been the lifecycle, and really the F35 is the only aircraft on the list that will be guaranteed to still be in service in 2060 which is the projected lifetime for Finland's needs. Even the Super Hornet is under budget cut threats in the USN, and Germany's purchase of Hornets seems to be uncertain. The EF may still be in service by 2060 but will be fairly long in the tooth by then, and was always going to be the most expensive unit to purchase, as well as having reliability issues. (this summer five Eurofighters came to Helsinki Vantaa, and only two could leave thanks to serviceability problems. One was stuck in a hangar there for several weeks, not exactly a good impression). The Gripen and Rafale have relatively small fleet numbers worldwide, and both have only one major user. However Sweden's similar use for the Gripen and it's value for money meant it was a very strong candidate.
Eric Mc said:
What happened to the term "jet fighter"?
Or just "fighter plane" or "fighter aircraft. They are virtually all jet powered today so we don't even need the "jet" description any more.
Because 'fighter' traditionally means air-to-air. And few aircraft are single role anymore, certainly none of the current choices (strike, attack, electronic warfare, etc).Or just "fighter plane" or "fighter aircraft. They are virtually all jet powered today so we don't even need the "jet" description any more.
Eric Mc said:
What happened to the term "jet fighter"?
Or just "fighter plane" or "fighter aircraft. They are virtually all jet powered today so we don't even need the "jet" description any more.
Lets try to keep this topic on track and not descend into another dull debate about terminology thanks. Or just "fighter plane" or "fighter aircraft. They are virtually all jet powered today so we don't even need the "jet" description any more.
Truckosaurus said:
Would there be savings made by choosing the Super-Hornet if the earlier F18 models are the incumbent? eg. less training costs for engineering staff and pilots etc?
Or is it such a leap that you might as well start from scratch with a new aircraft.
The latter. The Super is considered to be lower maintenance and fewer components, but significantly different nonetheless.Or is it such a leap that you might as well start from scratch with a new aircraft.
Mave said:
Eric Mc said:
Why do people insist on using the term "Fighter Jet"?
Just asking.
Same reason they still refer to jumbo jet and jump jet. Just asking.
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