Legalise drugs? What does that actually mean?
Discussion
There seems to be some enthusiasm on PH for legalising currently illegal drugs.
What confuses me is the how to do this.
All or some drugs? Where sold, where used, taxes and duties, who can buy, responsibility of users, for example.
What do you do about drugs that remain illegal? Will addicts be offered help to stop?
Seems to be a minefield that appears to have little public support, ig you believe HMG.
What confuses me is the how to do this.
All or some drugs? Where sold, where used, taxes and duties, who can buy, responsibility of users, for example.
What do you do about drugs that remain illegal? Will addicts be offered help to stop?
Seems to be a minefield that appears to have little public support, ig you believe HMG.
Yup. Pick them 1 by 1, or do the lot.
Say we decide to legalise Coke. First you talk to GSK (other choices exist) and make sure they can supply medical grade substance that isn’t cut with rat poison. Great, they can. Work out how much tax you want to apply, and sell it though pharmacies to over 18s, no questions asked. As long as the price is lower than the illegal trade, the gangs are suddenly unemployed.
Addicts will continue to kill themselves, just like they do today, but they are unlikely to kill themselves accidentally because the product will be consistent and not have random stuff in it. Addicts are addicts and you can’t stop them - take away the drugs and they will use booze, take away the booze and they will use chips. Yes, it is possible that some people will try coke who haven’t tried it before, but it is so widely available today that it is not hard to get.
All the rest is upside. Revenue, employment, less crime.
Say we decide to legalise Coke. First you talk to GSK (other choices exist) and make sure they can supply medical grade substance that isn’t cut with rat poison. Great, they can. Work out how much tax you want to apply, and sell it though pharmacies to over 18s, no questions asked. As long as the price is lower than the illegal trade, the gangs are suddenly unemployed.
Addicts will continue to kill themselves, just like they do today, but they are unlikely to kill themselves accidentally because the product will be consistent and not have random stuff in it. Addicts are addicts and you can’t stop them - take away the drugs and they will use booze, take away the booze and they will use chips. Yes, it is possible that some people will try coke who haven’t tried it before, but it is so widely available today that it is not hard to get.
All the rest is upside. Revenue, employment, less crime.
Legalise them, introduce quality standards and controls, licensing of distribution, taxation etc.
Get users help as required, rather than criminalising them.
All drugs? Unless there's a very definite reason why something shouldn't be included in the legalisation, yes I don't see why not.
Get users help as required, rather than criminalising them.
All drugs? Unless there's a very definite reason why something shouldn't be included in the legalisation, yes I don't see why not.
Only thing I'd add to the above is nobody should be In a position where they commit crime for their drugs - so addicts need a way to be issued with their preferred tipple free. How you work that I'm not sure.
Also you need a way to ensure the gangs don't buy from Chemists and distribute at more convenient times and locations at a markup and maintain the criminal involvement that way.
But none of these difficulties are worse that what we currently have.
Also you need a way to ensure the gangs don't buy from Chemists and distribute at more convenient times and locations at a markup and maintain the criminal involvement that way.
But none of these difficulties are worse that what we currently have.
100% yes. no one doesn't do drugs because they're illegal.
Use revenue to increase education programs
use revenue to increase funding for rehab and treatment centres
use revenue to prop up the economy
implement licences to sell and train up existing dealers & runners so they can be properly employed, earning a living and paying taxes.
Free up the police to do proper police work
etc etc etc
Crime will go down, drug related murders will go down, turf wars will go down and, imo, drug use will be safer and less people will die as a result.
Use revenue to increase education programs
use revenue to increase funding for rehab and treatment centres
use revenue to prop up the economy
implement licences to sell and train up existing dealers & runners so they can be properly employed, earning a living and paying taxes.
Free up the police to do proper police work
etc etc etc
Crime will go down, drug related murders will go down, turf wars will go down and, imo, drug use will be safer and less people will die as a result.
rxe said:
Yup. Pick them 1 by 1, or do the lot.
Say we decide to legalise Coke. First you talk to GSK (other choices exist) and make sure they can supply medical grade substance that isn’t cut with rat poison. Great, they can. Work out how much tax you want to apply, and sell it though pharmacies to over 18s, no questions asked. As long as the price is lower than the illegal trade, the gangs are suddenly unemployed.
Addicts will continue to kill themselves, just like they do today, but they are unlikely to kill themselves accidentally because the product will be consistent and not have random stuff in it. Addicts are addicts and you can’t stop them - take away the drugs and they will use booze, take away the booze and they will use chips. Yes, it is possible that some people will try coke who haven’t tried it before, but it is so widely available today that it is not hard to get.
All the rest is upside. Revenue, employment, less crime.
This.Say we decide to legalise Coke. First you talk to GSK (other choices exist) and make sure they can supply medical grade substance that isn’t cut with rat poison. Great, they can. Work out how much tax you want to apply, and sell it though pharmacies to over 18s, no questions asked. As long as the price is lower than the illegal trade, the gangs are suddenly unemployed.
Addicts will continue to kill themselves, just like they do today, but they are unlikely to kill themselves accidentally because the product will be consistent and not have random stuff in it. Addicts are addicts and you can’t stop them - take away the drugs and they will use booze, take away the booze and they will use chips. Yes, it is possible that some people will try coke who haven’t tried it before, but it is so widely available today that it is not hard to get.
All the rest is upside. Revenue, employment, less crime.
But, I don't even think that the price needs to be lower than the illegal trade. I drink alcohol, and if my choices were between buying high quality and tightly regulated alcoholic beverages from the pleasant environment of Sainsburys for £20, or buying booze of unknown origin, which was mixed with methylated spirits, from a dangerous chav down a side street somewhere, for £10, I would pay more every single time.
I do fully appreciate that there will always be those who want to get pissed or high as cheaply as is humanly possible, and they will still likely visit the dodgy dealers who are selling rubbish that is cut with rat poison, but I imagine they will be in the minority if substances were available easily in every supermarket, off licence, or corner shop.
From what I have read more generally about legalisation (or decriminalisation) of drugs in other countries, it has been a success story.
People are going to do drugs regardless of legality, the only difference it makes is whether the billions of pounds being spent are going to criminal enterprises or legitimate ones.
A change of approach seems like an obvious requirement at this point, but then it's been that way for the past few decades and we're still following prohibition.
A change of approach seems like an obvious requirement at this point, but then it's been that way for the past few decades and we're still following prohibition.
Biggy Stardust said:
A simple answer:
Pick the drugs to legalise, implement restrictions as per alcohol (tax, licensing premises, etc)
OK, which drugs? Heroin, morphine, fentanyl, spice, krokodil, antibiotics?Pick the drugs to legalise, implement restrictions as per alcohol (tax, licensing premises, etc)
Where would you sell them, same places and rules as tobacco and alcohol?
How do you measure the harm caused, if any?
eldar said:
Biggy Stardust said:
A simple answer:
Pick the drugs to legalise, implement restrictions as per alcohol (tax, licensing premises, etc)
OK, which drugs? Heroin, morphine, fentanyl, spice, krokodil, antibiotics?Pick the drugs to legalise, implement restrictions as per alcohol (tax, licensing premises, etc)
Where would you sell them, same places and rules as tobacco and alcohol?
How do you measure the harm caused, if any?
eldar said:
Biggy Stardust said:
A simple answer:
Pick the drugs to legalise, implement restrictions as per alcohol (tax, licensing premises, etc)
OK, which drugs? Heroin, morphine, fentanyl, spice, krokodil, antibiotics?Pick the drugs to legalise, implement restrictions as per alcohol (tax, licensing premises, etc)
eldar said:
Where would you sell them, same places and rules as tobacco and alcohol?
See above.eldar said:
How do you measure the harm caused, if any?
The same way as at present, though rather more easily since sales and users would be easier to track.I'm not necessarily in favour of legalisation. But some people do make it sound much more complicated than it actually is. Generally banning things is more involved than not banning them.
I believe Portugal, Holland and some US states have legalised some drugs with a mixed level of success.
From memory Portugal has had the most success, with drug crime and addiction declining massively.
Holland's approach saw a boost to the economy, created 100's of jobs etc but from personal experience bought plenty of crime and drug addiction to Amsterdam. I first visited nearly 20 years ago and the city was a rather scary place to be, lots of street dealers hassling you, drive by shootings at police stations and a murder in the red light district. Things seem to have improved on my most recent visit though.
Not sure if its still the case but Holland made using cafes a legal way to sell weed but the wholesale market was filled by drug gangs. The government at the time had not made a legal source for a coffeeshop owner to bulk buy cannabis.
There was a documentary on Netflix about Humboldt County once weed was legalised, which didn't really make an impact to all the crime issues.
I would support a move to make some drugs legal, but only if we researched every country that has done the same to understand what works and what doesn't.
From memory Portugal has had the most success, with drug crime and addiction declining massively.
Holland's approach saw a boost to the economy, created 100's of jobs etc but from personal experience bought plenty of crime and drug addiction to Amsterdam. I first visited nearly 20 years ago and the city was a rather scary place to be, lots of street dealers hassling you, drive by shootings at police stations and a murder in the red light district. Things seem to have improved on my most recent visit though.
Not sure if its still the case but Holland made using cafes a legal way to sell weed but the wholesale market was filled by drug gangs. The government at the time had not made a legal source for a coffeeshop owner to bulk buy cannabis.
There was a documentary on Netflix about Humboldt County once weed was legalised, which didn't really make an impact to all the crime issues.
I would support a move to make some drugs legal, but only if we researched every country that has done the same to understand what works and what doesn't.
eldar said:
OK, which drugs? Heroin, morphine, fentanyl, spice, krokodil, antibiotics?
Where would you sell them, same places and rules as tobacco and alcohol?
How do you measure the harm caused, if any?
krokodil is just a bad attempt at making heroin by people in extremely poor countriesWhere would you sell them, same places and rules as tobacco and alcohol?
How do you measure the harm caused, if any?
I think heroin / spice are the most fesasible as the overwhelming majority of people are scared of taking it as they know the potential consequences. Most users are suffering addicts.
legalising coke is probably a bad idea for this country
They legalized weed here in New Mexico, and starting early next year you will be able to buy it over the counter, and you can also grow 12 plants for your own consumption.
Here's the reality.
Some people are growing their allowed 12 plants and selling them, then growing another 12, or growing the next 12 in another house. This is negating any benefits of legal sales as the illicit ones are not paying taxes, and will undoubtedly sell weed cheaper than the regulated stores. Of course the criminal element are now raiding houses growing it legally, and without doubt, violence will eventually ensue.
That puts a stop to the idea that the City/Town/Municipality will benefit and make lots of tax money.
I already grew my 12 plants and harvested pounds of weed, so much of it that I won't be growing again for years.
So I have no need to buy it; ever.
From observation, legalizing weed has not diminished crime, it may in the long term actually cause more problems. The Mexican cartels now stop bringing weed across the border as it's uneconomic, but they have increased the smuggling of meth, coke heroin etc, to make up for the shortfall in profits.
Other than a reduction in the prison population and clearing a backlog of legal cases, legalizing weed has had no positive benefits, it's not making tax money and it hasn't diminished crime.
And it's not just supposition. To the north of New Mexico is Colorado, where weed has been legal for a few years now.
https://www.krqe.com/news/marijuana/growing-pains-...
Here's the reality.
Some people are growing their allowed 12 plants and selling them, then growing another 12, or growing the next 12 in another house. This is negating any benefits of legal sales as the illicit ones are not paying taxes, and will undoubtedly sell weed cheaper than the regulated stores. Of course the criminal element are now raiding houses growing it legally, and without doubt, violence will eventually ensue.
That puts a stop to the idea that the City/Town/Municipality will benefit and make lots of tax money.
I already grew my 12 plants and harvested pounds of weed, so much of it that I won't be growing again for years.
So I have no need to buy it; ever.
From observation, legalizing weed has not diminished crime, it may in the long term actually cause more problems. The Mexican cartels now stop bringing weed across the border as it's uneconomic, but they have increased the smuggling of meth, coke heroin etc, to make up for the shortfall in profits.
Other than a reduction in the prison population and clearing a backlog of legal cases, legalizing weed has had no positive benefits, it's not making tax money and it hasn't diminished crime.
And it's not just supposition. To the north of New Mexico is Colorado, where weed has been legal for a few years now.
https://www.krqe.com/news/marijuana/growing-pains-...
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