240R cocked up? Yeah or Naeh?
Discussion
Anyone shed any light on this or know of any problems with the supercharger implmentation?
[qoute=Some Bloke on Some Forum]
Hey, I was just as surprised to hear it from the Lotus dealer themself. It was late 2004 when Lotus dealers across Europe were informed by Lotus that there would be a Supercharged Exige. At the time, little was known but it was beginning 2005 (I think January/February if I recall correct) when details did surface of it being ~240bhp and the price for the option / upgrade.
It was just before the 240Rs revelation that I spoke to the dealer (I would have been a customer of the 240R) to find out that they [Lotus] are having trouble and that they [our local Lotus Dealer] would be going with the supercharger by a tuning company specialised in Toyota/Yamaha engines. Being quite confused about the 240R, I spoke to the chief engineer of Lotus overhere which is where I am taking my information from.
Basically, and I'll repeat it again, the Exige 240R has the flaw that the air-intake - which is used to power the supercharger - is *very* small (something that's quite obvious if you've ever seen one in real let alone the 240R) - especially under hot conditions. In fact, the air-intake is that small that it basically isn't doing much more than for for design reasons anyway in the standard Exige S2. And hot conditions would be the killer because hot air has a lower density. Ultimately, the power and effectiveness of a/the supercharger is dependand on the amount of air it can compress and deliver to the engine. If little to no air gets to the supercharger, little to no power is submitted to the engine and the result being that you have a resistant heavy supercharger connected to the engine doing little to nothing (= which is draining power). Of course there are no performance numbers nor statistics (only Lotus has them) of how well the 240R works and under which conditions, but it is clear that they are having problems - that much I can confirm and that's as directly from Lotus as you can get.
It actually makes quite a lot of sense since the 240R was planned as an upgrade/option to the standard Exige and later changed to be in limited numbers only. It certainly surprised the heck out of me, as I said, because I would have been a potential customer.
Having that said and considering the facts, I am not going to take any performance claims of Lotus's PR devision seriously about them getting even more power out of that supercharger. Not in the current implementation anyway, that much is obvious - at least to those that have seen the car in real (I have, as have the Lotus people I've been talking to). And I'm not sure why you're bringing up the 340R - it's another car and has little to do with the Exige, let alone it isn't even any indication of how much power it has either [the name 340R].
As I said, I'm not entirely sure that there are any 240Rs out on the street at all yet - I read Pistonheads article (I'm sure you have as well), but then again, I'm more likely to take information directly from one of the chief engineers than any other source let alone any PR devision. I guess we'll see how this pans out. I'm more than interested if word does get out about 240Rs on the street from their customers. (if there are any). If anything, I think no one except Lotus knows exactly how well the supercharged performs in practical situation (let alone on a track). If anything and from the information I've got - it probably just gets the job done under ideal conditions but you're damned to run into problems on a hot day on the track.
And no, my point wasn't to bring up that they can't get more power out of it - simply that the 240R's implementation of its supercharger isn't elegant at all and most likely flawed - which is something that any tuning company that specialises in superchargers will be able to tell you. As I said, Lotus overhere is officially backing the supercharger by a Yamaha/Toyota tuning company overhere that has more power, better torque and its properly cooled as the air is taken from the front of the car and directed to the back of the car for the supercharger. Because the supercharger isn't mounted on top of the engine as in the 240R, it's even available as an option for Elise 111R customers.
[/quote]
Anyone?
[qoute=Some Bloke on Some Forum]
Hey, I was just as surprised to hear it from the Lotus dealer themself. It was late 2004 when Lotus dealers across Europe were informed by Lotus that there would be a Supercharged Exige. At the time, little was known but it was beginning 2005 (I think January/February if I recall correct) when details did surface of it being ~240bhp and the price for the option / upgrade.
It was just before the 240Rs revelation that I spoke to the dealer (I would have been a customer of the 240R) to find out that they [Lotus] are having trouble and that they [our local Lotus Dealer] would be going with the supercharger by a tuning company specialised in Toyota/Yamaha engines. Being quite confused about the 240R, I spoke to the chief engineer of Lotus overhere which is where I am taking my information from.
Basically, and I'll repeat it again, the Exige 240R has the flaw that the air-intake - which is used to power the supercharger - is *very* small (something that's quite obvious if you've ever seen one in real let alone the 240R) - especially under hot conditions. In fact, the air-intake is that small that it basically isn't doing much more than for for design reasons anyway in the standard Exige S2. And hot conditions would be the killer because hot air has a lower density. Ultimately, the power and effectiveness of a/the supercharger is dependand on the amount of air it can compress and deliver to the engine. If little to no air gets to the supercharger, little to no power is submitted to the engine and the result being that you have a resistant heavy supercharger connected to the engine doing little to nothing (= which is draining power). Of course there are no performance numbers nor statistics (only Lotus has them) of how well the 240R works and under which conditions, but it is clear that they are having problems - that much I can confirm and that's as directly from Lotus as you can get.
It actually makes quite a lot of sense since the 240R was planned as an upgrade/option to the standard Exige and later changed to be in limited numbers only. It certainly surprised the heck out of me, as I said, because I would have been a potential customer.
Having that said and considering the facts, I am not going to take any performance claims of Lotus's PR devision seriously about them getting even more power out of that supercharger. Not in the current implementation anyway, that much is obvious - at least to those that have seen the car in real (I have, as have the Lotus people I've been talking to). And I'm not sure why you're bringing up the 340R - it's another car and has little to do with the Exige, let alone it isn't even any indication of how much power it has either [the name 340R].
As I said, I'm not entirely sure that there are any 240Rs out on the street at all yet - I read Pistonheads article (I'm sure you have as well), but then again, I'm more likely to take information directly from one of the chief engineers than any other source let alone any PR devision. I guess we'll see how this pans out. I'm more than interested if word does get out about 240Rs on the street from their customers. (if there are any). If anything, I think no one except Lotus knows exactly how well the supercharged performs in practical situation (let alone on a track). If anything and from the information I've got - it probably just gets the job done under ideal conditions but you're damned to run into problems on a hot day on the track.
And no, my point wasn't to bring up that they can't get more power out of it - simply that the 240R's implementation of its supercharger isn't elegant at all and most likely flawed - which is something that any tuning company that specialises in superchargers will be able to tell you. As I said, Lotus overhere is officially backing the supercharger by a Yamaha/Toyota tuning company overhere that has more power, better torque and its properly cooled as the air is taken from the front of the car and directed to the back of the car for the supercharger. Because the supercharger isn't mounted on top of the engine as in the 240R, it's even available as an option for Elise 111R customers.
[/quote]
Anyone?
Dunno but the first ones been delivered to someone in yorkshire, went to the NYLOC meet last night.
www.exiges.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=44452&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
>> Edited by moles on Wednesday 27th July 20:23
www.exiges.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=44452&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
>> Edited by moles on Wednesday 27th July 20:23
I read something similar - that the air intake isnt great enough for the intercooler..so under hot conditions the power will drop.
I always take the manufacturers claims for a performance with a pinch of salt anyway - these are the *best* possible performance figures under ideal circumstances...what you can achieve yourself is something different entirely...it will be interesting to see if any of hte UK magazines independantly performance test the car to see what it achives........
I always take the manufacturers claims for a performance with a pinch of salt anyway - these are the *best* possible performance figures under ideal circumstances...what you can achieve yourself is something different entirely...it will be interesting to see if any of hte UK magazines independantly performance test the car to see what it achives........
yeah - thats right...its just that some sceptics are even doubting the effeciency of the engine bay mounted intercooler on the 240R.,,just hearsay at the moment IMO...its not running *that* high boost and the SC HOnda gets away without an intercooler at all (runs lower boost still) and still makes the power....
The original post does seem to mix comments about the supercharger's (i.e. engine's) air intake and the roof intake that directs air to cool the intercooler. At the customer day for the 240R a few weeks back Gavan said they tried a larger roof intake to improve the cooling flow, which did help power output but because of the additional drag the car was actually slower above 100mph than with the std Exige roof intake so they stuck with that. I have seen other comments claiming that the cooling is not all it should be, but they were from the manufacturer of a rival supercharger installation 
As for the implication that the limited edition was because of some concern over the capabilities, I really doubt that. More likely a way to get a higher up-front payback for the initial run, to be followed by the regular kit which will be available for any Exige.
>> Edited by johnm993c4 on Thursday 28th July 09:21
As for the implication that the limited edition was because of some concern over the capabilities, I really doubt that. More likely a way to get a higher up-front payback for the initial run, to be followed by the regular kit which will be available for any Exige.
>> Edited by johnm993c4 on Thursday 28th July 09:21
yeah sounds like a pile of poop to me.
induction temperatures actually have less effect on power than most people think. (the effect is, however magnified with forced induction engines).
I doubt that Lotus would put the car out if there were any problems with heat.
If it was a major issue, then the first thing to do would be ceramic coat the exhausts to keep heat in the exhausts and thus get it out of the car. I do not believe this has been done, so I can't imagine heat is too big an issue.
I know that this is getting heat out of the engine, not directly dropping induction temperatures, but it all has a massive effect on the overall temp inside the engine bay.
I presume the 240R has the standard Exige flat floor? If there was too much problem with induction heat, I am sure ducting could be plumbed from the low pressure area under the car to the engine bay.
I don't think there are any major problems with heat.
induction temperatures actually have less effect on power than most people think. (the effect is, however magnified with forced induction engines).
I doubt that Lotus would put the car out if there were any problems with heat.
If it was a major issue, then the first thing to do would be ceramic coat the exhausts to keep heat in the exhausts and thus get it out of the car. I do not believe this has been done, so I can't imagine heat is too big an issue.
I know that this is getting heat out of the engine, not directly dropping induction temperatures, but it all has a massive effect on the overall temp inside the engine bay.
I presume the 240R has the standard Exige flat floor? If there was too much problem with induction heat, I am sure ducting could be plumbed from the low pressure area under the car to the engine bay.
I don't think there are any major problems with heat.
Which forum was that from and in which country?
To get the air from the front of the car would take a very long pipe!
If the supercharger isn't on the engine where is it? Is there a nice long belt with the nice long pipe?
The 240R takes it's air from the front of the car anyway!
Not sure where the 340R suddenly came from either.
Mr Yogi, not getting at you here as you're only the messenger, I presume?
Every magazine who has tested the 240R has loved it and as someone else said the difference in air density in the temperature range we're talking here is not that great anyway.
someone said:
.....its properly cooled as the air is taken from the front of the car and directed to the back of the car for the supercharger. Because the supercharger isn't mounted on top of the engine as in the 240R, it's even available as an option for Elise 111R customers.
To get the air from the front of the car would take a very long pipe!
If the supercharger isn't on the engine where is it? Is there a nice long belt with the nice long pipe?
The 240R takes it's air from the front of the car anyway!
Not sure where the 340R suddenly came from either.
Mr Yogi, not getting at you here as you're only the messenger, I presume?
Every magazine who has tested the 240R has loved it and as someone else said the difference in air density in the temperature range we're talking here is not that great anyway.
Thanks for the replies guys, I only posted this here as I came across it by accident and thought it sounded a bit ...odd. Especially Lotus telling a prospective customer for the car "nah they’re a bit crap" so to speak. Not being a technical person though I had no way of gauging the technical accuracy of what was said. I did a quick search but found nothing on here.
I was just interested if this had any truth to it as the poster seems quite adamant about it. Thanks again
BTW this came form a non motoring site in the equivalent of general gassing forum.
I was just interested if this had any truth to it as the poster seems quite adamant about it. Thanks again
BTW this came form a non motoring site in the equivalent of general gassing forum.
Whoever wrote that is clearly a bit confused about how superchargers work. And I would imagine the magazine testers who have driven the 240R and raved about it didn't just imagine how good it was to drive.
Having said that, there may be something in what is said in that the ultimate power of the package could well be limited by the efficiency of the intercooler constraining how much boost they could run (they haven't lowered the CR unless I'm mistaken).
Regardless, I'm still waiting eagerly for the release of a retro-fittable version of the supercharger! Determining factor for me will be price.
Having said that, there may be something in what is said in that the ultimate power of the package could well be limited by the efficiency of the intercooler constraining how much boost they could run (they haven't lowered the CR unless I'm mistaken).
Regardless, I'm still waiting eagerly for the release of a retro-fittable version of the supercharger! Determining factor for me will be price.
chris_n said:
Whoever wrote that is clearly a bit confused about how superchargers work. And I would imagine the magazine testers who have driven the 240R and raved about it didn't just imagine how good it was to drive.
Having said that, there may be something in what is said in that the ultimate power of the package could well be limited by the efficiency of the intercooler constraining how much boost they could run (they haven't lowered the CR unless I'm mistaken).
Regardless, I'm still waiting eagerly for the release of a retro-fittable version of the supercharger! Determining factor for me will be price.
not going to get into the basic argument here asside to say that remeber that it used the M62 charger, these are a positive displacement chager, ie. you get a fixed volume of air per rev of the charger. As the charger is run at a fixed speed vs. the engine, this means that the engine get's a fixed volume of air per rev.
OK, now consider that the mass of said fixed volume of air is temp dependant, thus the hotter the intake air temp (to the charger) the less air-mass it will have. This has NOTHING to do with the intercooler as this is *after* the chager, not before.
thus the air intake is just as important to the SC Yota engine as it would be for a NA engine.
Hope this helps you understand what the issue is here...
A few queries about what you say, not to be argumentative, but because I am genuinely interested in this topic ...
Presumably Lotus have selected the size of the pulley on the charger to either underdrive or overdrive it relative to engine speed. Smaller pulley = drive it faster = more volume of air = more boost? Driving the supercharger faster to increase boost is fairly common practice with superchargers e.g. VW installations? (Obviously hand in hand with ignition/fuelling and potentially CR changes). So they choose the gearing of the supercharger based on the amount of boost they want.
Err, compressing a gas heats it up (O-Level physics was a while ago now admittedly). The heat introduced by compressing it in the supercharger will raise its temperature considerably, to the point where the ambient temp at the intake to the supercharger is almost (but not entirely) irrelevant by comparison.
The intercooler cools the intake charge post-supercharger, so its efficiency is crucial. Ultimately the temperature of the intake charge entering the cylinder is what limits the boost that can be run.
Thought I did understand it, but willing to stand corrected! Maybe I am missing something fundamental about how this type of supercharger works.
My point was this - if the intercooler is not efficient enough to take sufficient heat out of the incoming charge, Lotus may have been limited in how much boost they could set up the supercharger to run? In otherwords how fast they could drive it.
Thoughts???
Chris
scuffham said:
not going to get into the basic argument here asside to say that remeber that it used the M62 charger, these are a positive displacement chager, ie. you get a fixed volume of air per rev of the charger. As the charger is run at a fixed speed vs. the engine, this means that the engine get's a fixed volume of air per rev.
Presumably Lotus have selected the size of the pulley on the charger to either underdrive or overdrive it relative to engine speed. Smaller pulley = drive it faster = more volume of air = more boost? Driving the supercharger faster to increase boost is fairly common practice with superchargers e.g. VW installations? (Obviously hand in hand with ignition/fuelling and potentially CR changes). So they choose the gearing of the supercharger based on the amount of boost they want.
scuffham said:
OK, now consider that the mass of said fixed volume of air is temp dependant, thus the hotter the intake air temp (to the charger) the less air-mass it will have. This has NOTHING to do with the intercooler as this is *after* the chager, not before.
Err, compressing a gas heats it up (O-Level physics was a while ago now admittedly). The heat introduced by compressing it in the supercharger will raise its temperature considerably, to the point where the ambient temp at the intake to the supercharger is almost (but not entirely) irrelevant by comparison.
The intercooler cools the intake charge post-supercharger, so its efficiency is crucial. Ultimately the temperature of the intake charge entering the cylinder is what limits the boost that can be run.
scuffham said:
Hope this helps you understand what the issue is here...
Thought I did understand it, but willing to stand corrected! Maybe I am missing something fundamental about how this type of supercharger works.
My point was this - if the intercooler is not efficient enough to take sufficient heat out of the incoming charge, Lotus may have been limited in how much boost they could set up the supercharger to run? In otherwords how fast they could drive it.
Thoughts???
Chris
Chris, that's a different issue (although still valid, it's not the one here)
you need to remeber that this is a postive displacement charger, as in an air-pump, not like a fan (like a turbo etc).
with a turbo, the controling factor is the 'boost' as in you use the waste gate to run a stable boost pressure, thus no matter what the charge temp is (withing limits) the boost pressure will always be the same.
this is NOT the case for the Eaton's, as they are volume linked to engine speed, boost pressure is just a factor of what the flow caricteristics of the engine are vs. the CFM from the charger. Cleary if you have a very efficent intercooler, then the boost pressure (for a given carger/engine combination) will go down as the cooler chage will have a smaller volume (for the same mass), that said, it's still the same mass of air, thus the same 'bang' will be got (within the limits of the engine and knock etc).
The way to look at this type of installtion is more like a NA engine, just running in a slightly higher air pressure environment, hence all the same rules for tunning apply (mostly!), I suspect the Lotus install is running VERY low levels of actual boost as such, (an in probably in the 3-4Psi max bracket).
the down side to all this is that unlike a turbo install, as the ambient pressure drops or temp rises, the air mass taken in per rev of the engine decreases, wheras for the turbo, it just pumps more air to achive the same boost level (within the limits of the turbo install).
you need to remeber that this is a postive displacement charger, as in an air-pump, not like a fan (like a turbo etc).
with a turbo, the controling factor is the 'boost' as in you use the waste gate to run a stable boost pressure, thus no matter what the charge temp is (withing limits) the boost pressure will always be the same.
this is NOT the case for the Eaton's, as they are volume linked to engine speed, boost pressure is just a factor of what the flow caricteristics of the engine are vs. the CFM from the charger. Cleary if you have a very efficent intercooler, then the boost pressure (for a given carger/engine combination) will go down as the cooler chage will have a smaller volume (for the same mass), that said, it's still the same mass of air, thus the same 'bang' will be got (within the limits of the engine and knock etc).
The way to look at this type of installtion is more like a NA engine, just running in a slightly higher air pressure environment, hence all the same rules for tunning apply (mostly!), I suspect the Lotus install is running VERY low levels of actual boost as such, (an in probably in the 3-4Psi max bracket).
the down side to all this is that unlike a turbo install, as the ambient pressure drops or temp rises, the air mass taken in per rev of the engine decreases, wheras for the turbo, it just pumps more air to achive the same boost level (within the limits of the turbo install).
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