Cloud backup for Cloud backup!
Author
Discussion

NickCW

Original Poster:

296 posts

160 months

Tuesday 14th December 2021
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Hello everyone,

A question - it occurred to me the other day when having a conversation that a lot of us use various cloud backups to store everything - so dropbox, google cloud, samsung and so on. When you have accumulated a few years worth of photos/videos/documents etc it starts to get harder to back everything up locally espicially when you change devices and so on, so is there a cloud backup service that backs up the cloud at all?

Or should we just put faith in the big corps who store our data?

It was merely the thought that if the data was lost, people would lose all their photos, family memories, documents etc with no hard copies - so it raised a point I didn't know the answer to, be interesting to know what people do.


PS - Stuck it here in Computers as I thought it made sense - but if not apologies Mr or Mrs Moderator!

Panamax

9,876 posts

64 months

Tuesday 14th December 2021
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NickCW said:
Or should we just put faith in the big corps who store our data?
No, which is why many people still back up to a portable hard drive as well and chuck it in the back of the wardrobe.

deckster

9,631 posts

285 months

Tuesday 14th December 2021
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A good rule of thumb is to keep at least three copies of everything in different locations. Also, be aware of what the characteristics of each store is as 'backup' means different things to different people.

Personally I have:
(1) Primary document storage is to my local drive
(2) This is automatically replicated to Google Drive. This isn't a "backup" as such, it's just an easy way to create a bit of redundancy but mainly to have a secondary copy that I can reference from anywhere
(3) My local documents folder is replicated to my NAS
(4) My NAS is backed up to another online storage provider, which retains 30 versions of all files indefinitely

All pretty easy to set up and just works in the background without me having to do anything.

NickCW

Original Poster:

296 posts

160 months

Tuesday 14th December 2021
quotequote all
What about things like Photos from mobile devices, as these backup automatically to the Cloud in the first instance?

colin79666

2,224 posts

143 months

Tuesday 14th December 2021
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NickCW said:
What about things like Photos from mobile devices, as these backup automatically to the Cloud in the first instance?
Depends if you opted in for it. More often it’s a sync, not really a backup. Will cover you if you smash your phone and get another but won’t protect you if you accidentally delete all your photos.

Brainpox

4,323 posts

181 months

Tuesday 14th December 2021
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colin79666 said:
Depends if you opted in for it. More often it’s a sync, not really a backup. Will cover you if you smash your phone and get another but won’t protect you if you accidentally delete all your photos.
Most will keep a deleted file in a bin for some time so there’s some protection.

SkinnyPete

2,001 posts

179 months

Tuesday 14th December 2021
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I know not everyone will share my sentiments on privacy/is that bothered, but one thing to take into account with the big brands is that they have the private keys to decrypt your files (if they are even encrypted on the server and not just in transit).

They also retain all your data even if you delete it, and actively share it with members of five eyes (Australia, Canada US etc.).

Again I know some people really won't care, but if you want to use Cloud storage then I'd be looking at a provider that is private and is based somewhere with sensible privacy laws such as Switzerland.

bigpriest

2,542 posts

160 months

Tuesday 14th December 2021
quotequote all
It's not really a "cloud" is it? it's a server in a data centre. So depends what the policy of the corporation is - do they backup their servers that your data is stored on. I don't know the answer. I currently store stuff on MS One Drive which is then copied to Google Drive. Really need an external drive copy at home as well.

e-honda

9,548 posts

176 months

Tuesday 14th December 2021
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The big corps (amazon, google, microsoft and apple) can be very well relied on not to accidentally lose your data and keep it very secure.
Your biggest risk is losing access to it because they decide they no longer want you as a customer.

I go with a cloud first strategy, all my data on devices is ephemeral, the master copy of everything is in google drive.
My google account periodically exports all my data to microsoft onedrive every 2 months so should google ever decide to kick me off because of some random terms and conditions violation, like speaking to the google assistant in a harsh tone.

Brother D

4,452 posts

206 months

Tuesday 14th December 2021
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This thread was great timing!

I have a small biz, and the renewal for carbonite has just come up.

Debating if it's worth it?

- Currently have a back up of the main PC drives on a drive in another PC
- Also a backup of the PC to a Nas in another building,
- Also the main drive is synced to one-drive as well.

(I even have a portable drive I take snap shots every 6 months or so).

I think writing this out has convinced me I probably don't need it?

CloudStuff

4,262 posts

134 months

Tuesday 14th December 2021
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There've been a few threads about this and there are a lot of opinions and options out there.

I've had good success with - for small businesses / home users:

1) Storage on local devices - encrypted with Bitlocker or Veracrypt etc.
2) Backed up to a NAS device.
3) 2 Synced up to Backblaze.

Key things - ensure original and backup storage locations are encrypted, and test the decryption and restore of the data!

ian in lancs

3,853 posts

228 months

Tuesday 14th December 2021
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I use NAS, apple cloud and Dropbox. I also keep old drives.

NickCW

Original Poster:

296 posts

160 months

Wednesday 15th December 2021
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Interesting to see all the different options and approaches, not familiar with Carbonite / Backblaze and the pros/cons though tbh?

e-honda said:
The big corps (amazon, google, microsoft and apple) can be very well relied on not to accidentally lose your data and keep it very secure.
Your biggest risk is losing access to it because they decide they no longer want you as a customer.

I go with a cloud first strategy, all my data on devices is ephemeral, the master copy of everything is in google drive.
My google account periodically exports all my data to microsoft onedrive every 2 months so should google ever decide to kick me off because of some random terms and conditions violation, like speaking to the google assistant in a harsh tone.
This sounds like a neat solution espicially as it sounds automated - is that the case?


James_N

3,303 posts

264 months

Wednesday 15th December 2021
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I used to have stuff stored on google drive and USB sticks. Just recently got rid of the USB sticks and just left with everything on google drive. I even bought some more storage, so have filled up 155gb of 200 with pictures, documents etc.

Much easier and can access from anywhere without having to worry about losing USB drives. I imagine there are backups of backups anyway, so if there was some big server outage, things could be restored.

I stand to be corrected though!

deckster

9,631 posts

285 months

Wednesday 15th December 2021
quotequote all
James_N said:
I used to have stuff stored on google drive and USB sticks. Just recently got rid of the USB sticks and just left with everything on google drive. I even bought some more storage, so have filled up 155gb of 200 with pictures, documents etc.

Much easier and can access from anywhere without having to worry about losing USB drives. I imagine there are backups of backups anyway, so if there was some big server outage, things could be restored.
Server outages aren't what you want to be worried about with these cloud services. There are really two scenarios that you need to guard against:

(1) Total loss of your account. If you lose the password and can't recover it, or for some reason are kicked off the service. Keeping a full copy elsewhere is an effective hedge against this.
(2) Accidental deletion or corruption of a file. This also includes ransomware that encrypts your files. In this case an automatically-replicated copy might not be enough so you need to make sure that you have the ability to recover old versions of files that were made pre-corruption.

If you cover yourself against those two then your files should be pretty safe against anything short of an actual zombie apocalypse.

MrB.

599 posts

216 months

Wednesday 15th December 2021
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Excuse my simple brain here, but I have recently moved to an iPhone from an Samsung where I had an SD card installed. I use my phone for a lot of videos, using a lot of memory. I'm a bit of a chimp when it comes to tech, so apologies of this is a really simple question......

Recording video today, my iPhone is now full. It is a 128GB model and it says that 95GB of that is taken up by photos and videos. I pay for 2TB of iCloud storage, and everything seems to be on there, by I'm worried if I start deleting off my phone (and I assume I just need to sit and delete everything manually?) then I've lost it from iCloud too. Is that correct? Am I being really thick? Sorry, I'm an old dinosaur and just need some help with this..... I need to keep the videos and photos for work, so can I just delete them from my phone once I've transferred them to iCloud or my Mac?

barryrs

5,041 posts

253 months

Wednesday 15th December 2021
quotequote all
deckster said:
James_N said:
I used to have stuff stored on google drive and USB sticks. Just recently got rid of the USB sticks and just left with everything on google drive. I even bought some more storage, so have filled up 155gb of 200 with pictures, documents etc.

Much easier and can access from anywhere without having to worry about losing USB drives. I imagine there are backups of backups anyway, so if there was some big server outage, things could be restored.
Server outages aren't what you want to be worried about with these cloud services. There are really two scenarios that you need to guard against:

(1) Total loss of your account. If you lose the password and can't recover it, or for some reason are kicked off the service. Keeping a full copy elsewhere is an effective hedge against this.
(2) Accidental deletion or corruption of a file. This also includes ransomware that encrypts your files. In this case an automatically-replicated copy might not be enough so you need to make sure that you have the ability to recover old versions of files that were made pre-corruption.

If you cover yourself against those two then your files should be pretty safe against anything short of an actual zombie apocalypse.
Wasn’t there a member recently who lost access to a cloud service as they flagged innocent photos of his kids as inappropriate and wouldn’t reinstate access.

Result was loosing everything.

deckster

9,631 posts

285 months

Wednesday 15th December 2021
quotequote all
MrB. said:
Excuse my simple brain here, but I have recently moved to an iPhone from an Samsung where I had an SD card installed. I use my phone for a lot of videos, using a lot of memory. I'm a bit of a chimp when it comes to tech, so apologies of this is a really simple question......

Recording video today, my iPhone is now full. It is a 128GB model and it says that 95GB of that is taken up by photos and videos. I pay for 2TB of iCloud storage, and everything seems to be on there, by I'm worried if I start deleting off my phone (and I assume I just need to sit and delete everything manually?) then I've lost it from iCloud too. Is that correct? Am I being really thick? Sorry, I'm an old dinosaur and just need some help with this..... I need to keep the videos and photos for work, so can I just delete them from my phone once I've transferred them to iCloud or my Mac?
I've just spent a rather shocking five minutes googling this and can't quite believe the answer. Which is, you can't do this. Not really. The answers online appear to be either (a) don't use iCloud, or (b) buy our stty file transfer app which will magically solve all your problems.

I am an Android guy and it's really easy (menu icon, "Delete from device"). Or, even easier, "Free up space", which will automatically remove from the device all those photos/videos that are safely backed up in the cloud.

But with iCloud, unless I'm tragically misinformed, this just isn't possible. Which is...incredible. Somebody tell me I'm wrong?

Brainpox

4,323 posts

181 months

Wednesday 15th December 2021
quotequote all
deckster said:
MrB. said:
Excuse my simple brain here, but I have recently moved to an iPhone from an Samsung where I had an SD card installed. I use my phone for a lot of videos, using a lot of memory. I'm a bit of a chimp when it comes to tech, so apologies of this is a really simple question......

Recording video today, my iPhone is now full. It is a 128GB model and it says that 95GB of that is taken up by photos and videos. I pay for 2TB of iCloud storage, and everything seems to be on there, by I'm worried if I start deleting off my phone (and I assume I just need to sit and delete everything manually?) then I've lost it from iCloud too. Is that correct? Am I being really thick? Sorry, I'm an old dinosaur and just need some help with this..... I need to keep the videos and photos for work, so can I just delete them from my phone once I've transferred them to iCloud or my Mac?
I've just spent a rather shocking five minutes googling this and can't quite believe the answer. Which is, you can't do this. Not really. The answers online appear to be either (a) don't use iCloud, or (b) buy our stty file transfer app which will magically solve all your problems.

I am an Android guy and it's really easy (menu icon, "Delete from device"). Or, even easier, "Free up space", which will automatically remove from the device all those photos/videos that are safely backed up in the cloud.

But with iCloud, unless I'm tragically misinformed, this just isn't possible. Which is...incredible. Somebody tell me I'm wrong?
Yes you are wrong. There is a option in the settings for the photos app to 'optimise iPhone storage'. The full res files are kept on iCloud and you download them as you access them. If the 'download and keep originals' option is used instead, you'll run out of space.

Monsterlime

1,543 posts

196 months

Wednesday 15th December 2021
quotequote all
I currently have 4 cloud services for various backups, along with my local computer and NAS(s).

  • pCloud (lifetime 500GB account) for my main documents etc, which also has a subset of the most important files/docs synced to Dropbox (free, but I have a reasonable amount of space due to referrals etc). pCloud also offers an encrypted folder for sensitive items and they do NOT have keys to this to decrypt it.
  • Backblaze B2 using Duplicati to encrypt and upload various folders from my NAS, which includes the files from pCloud/Dropbox. This costs very, very little a month and is much cheaper than AWS S3 etc.
  • Crashplan Pro to store everything on my NAS as there is no increasing cost based storage on used, it is a flat fee. This basically uploads from a single large 10TB drive sitting in a spare bay in one NAS that all my files etc are replicated to and then sent to Crashplan.
Possibly overkill, I use each service for a specific reason and the combined monthly cost between Crashplan and Backblaze is less than £15 a month. pCloud was a lump sum in 2019 and every month I use it, it becomes cheaper and cheaper compared to Dropbox.