Issues with a car purchased from a dealer, do I have a case?
Discussion
I bought a used car from a non-main dealer and decided to get a wheel alignment done. The wheel alignment place refused to do the alignment due to there being too much play in the suspension, and advised I go get it fixed then come back. I've since been to a garage to get a quote for the work and anything else that might need fixing and they said the following needs looking at:
NSF top arm suspension ball joint has excessive play
OSF top arm suspension ball joint has excessive play
NSF and OSF curved arm suspension arm bushes are split (will cause
excessive tyre wear)
NSR upper top arm suspension bushes have play
OSR upper top arm suspension bushes have play
NSR lower arm suspension bushes have play
OSR lower arm suspension bushes have play
NSR and OSR lower shock absorber bushes have been fitted incorrectly
Diff pinion oil seal is leaking (fix the oil leak first, may require the
diff replacing if the pinion seal has been leaking for a long time and
the oil level has been allowed to get low)
Engine and gearbox have oil leaks, suggest washing off and rechecking
The total work above is looking to be around £2500.
When speaking to the dealer that sold me the car they said that they only give a 3 month warranty for main mechanical issues and that doesn't include things like the suspension. Do I have a leg to stand on by arguing with the dealer on this? I would imagine bushes are consumables and the dealer gave it a 12 months MOT 2 months ago when I bought the car. I was thinking of giving it another MOT to see if anything pops up in the advisories.
NSF top arm suspension ball joint has excessive play
OSF top arm suspension ball joint has excessive play
NSF and OSF curved arm suspension arm bushes are split (will cause
excessive tyre wear)
NSR upper top arm suspension bushes have play
OSR upper top arm suspension bushes have play
NSR lower arm suspension bushes have play
OSR lower arm suspension bushes have play
NSR and OSR lower shock absorber bushes have been fitted incorrectly
Diff pinion oil seal is leaking (fix the oil leak first, may require the
diff replacing if the pinion seal has been leaking for a long time and
the oil level has been allowed to get low)
Engine and gearbox have oil leaks, suggest washing off and rechecking
The total work above is looking to be around £2500.
When speaking to the dealer that sold me the car they said that they only give a 3 month warranty for main mechanical issues and that doesn't include things like the suspension. Do I have a leg to stand on by arguing with the dealer on this? I would imagine bushes are consumables and the dealer gave it a 12 months MOT 2 months ago when I bought the car. I was thinking of giving it another MOT to see if anything pops up in the advisories.
Have a read of https://www.theaa.com/car-buying/legal-rights
I would say
- the car is not of satisfactory quality, because the garage reported that the suspension alignment cannot be done and the worn bushes will be causing excessive tyre wear, and oil is leaking from engine, gearbox and diff.
- since you found the fault between 30 days and 6 months after purchase, "It’s assumed in law that the fault was present at the time of purchase unless the seller can prove otherwise." Ie they would need to prove that all the above parts were in good condition when they sold you the car, which seems unlikely given how many parts are loose and how loose they are.
- therefore you are giving them one chance to repair the car (or give a full refund) as per the Consumer Rights Act.
Note that the dealer warranty and its terms are irrelevant here, you're claiming your statutory consumer rights.
I think that according to the law, you have a right to a repair or refund, and I think that's fairly clear. I think the greater challenge lies in actually enforcing your rights - how big of an operation is this dealer, and how long have they been trading? Small companies can disappear and pop up again elsewhere, leaving the liability for previously sold faulty goods with the old closed/bankrupt company.
I would say
- the car is not of satisfactory quality, because the garage reported that the suspension alignment cannot be done and the worn bushes will be causing excessive tyre wear, and oil is leaking from engine, gearbox and diff.
- since you found the fault between 30 days and 6 months after purchase, "It’s assumed in law that the fault was present at the time of purchase unless the seller can prove otherwise." Ie they would need to prove that all the above parts were in good condition when they sold you the car, which seems unlikely given how many parts are loose and how loose they are.
- therefore you are giving them one chance to repair the car (or give a full refund) as per the Consumer Rights Act.
Note that the dealer warranty and its terms are irrelevant here, you're claiming your statutory consumer rights.
I think that according to the law, you have a right to a repair or refund, and I think that's fairly clear. I think the greater challenge lies in actually enforcing your rights - how big of an operation is this dealer, and how long have they been trading? Small companies can disappear and pop up again elsewhere, leaving the liability for previously sold faulty goods with the old closed/bankrupt company.
Edited by samoht on Monday 20th December 19:47
Yep Consumer Rights Act (2015) trumps any warranty. Ask them to fix the issues, regardless of warranty status. Give them a few weeks then ask nicely in writing. Then another letter a few weeks later if nothing positive has occurred saying they've got a further two weeks before you'll begin legal action. Then begin an online claim at about 8 weeks - Google it.
ETA - another poster has suggested these may be wear and tear parts - they mostly are, but the odds of them all failing in the short time you've owned the vehicle are zero. A decent Independent will roughly age the failed parts quite easily.
ETA - another poster has suggested these may be wear and tear parts - they mostly are, but the odds of them all failing in the short time you've owned the vehicle are zero. A decent Independent will roughly age the failed parts quite easily.
Edited by popeyewhite on Monday 20th December 22:31
Thanks for the replies. It's a 13 plate Jaguar XF with about 56000 miles on the clock so not exactly old. I would have just footed the bill myself if it was a set of front control arms or something but pretty much all of them with excessive wear is a bit worrying. In addition to that I am worried about the longevity of the diff if it's been running with low oil.
To add another twist on this in that the dealer is the other side of the country so it's going to be a mission to take back. I'm happy to do it to get the parts fixed but I can see it being a pain if they start to get difficult.
I was considering running it through another MOT as proof that it's not fit for purpose but that might backfire in that it might not show everything up.
I also suppose there's also nothing id be able to do to check that any of the oil leaks are dealt with within the 6 month timeframe if they wanted to do the bare minimum to get it sorted?
To add another twist on this in that the dealer is the other side of the country so it's going to be a mission to take back. I'm happy to do it to get the parts fixed but I can see it being a pain if they start to get difficult.
I was considering running it through another MOT as proof that it's not fit for purpose but that might backfire in that it might not show everything up.
I also suppose there's also nothing id be able to do to check that any of the oil leaks are dealt with within the 6 month timeframe if they wanted to do the bare minimum to get it sorted?
That's the point I'm at at the minute where people are refusing to do the alignment as it would be pointless.
For some reason their MOT came back with relatively clean health apart from tyre wear where they changed all 4 tyres anyway.
I think as people say the diff and the wear on all corners at the same time, with the denial of getting the geo done should be enough of a reason to get them to sort something u would have thought.
For some reason their MOT came back with relatively clean health apart from tyre wear where they changed all 4 tyres anyway.
I think as people say the diff and the wear on all corners at the same time, with the denial of getting the geo done should be enough of a reason to get them to sort something u would have thought.
That does seem to be quite a list of faults for an 8 year old car with only 56k on the clock, remind me never to buy a used Jag!
Well you have nothing to lose by pushing the garage to fix as many of the faults as you can, these are warranty items I would say so find out who the warranty is with (i.e. is it the garage or a 3rd party) and get them to look at it:
Diff pinion oil seal is leaking (fix the oil leak first, may require the
diff replacing if the pinion seal has been leaking for a long time and
the oil level has been allowed to get low)
Engine and gearbox have oil leaks, suggest washing off and rechecking
Those are not wear and tear.
In terms of the suspension stuff, that list suggests you need new shocks/dampers all round and the wishbone arms.
This seems odd:
NSR and OSR lower shock absorber bushes have been fitted incorrectly
Does an MOT history check show any suspension stuff? That suggests work has been done before on the suspension which seems even more strange for a car with that little mileage.
Bear in mind an MOT done by a selling garage either in house or up the road at the place they take all their sale cars is unlikely to be as thorough as one you get yourself. Any small issue which is not a major is likely to be overlooked by them.
Well you have nothing to lose by pushing the garage to fix as many of the faults as you can, these are warranty items I would say so find out who the warranty is with (i.e. is it the garage or a 3rd party) and get them to look at it:
Diff pinion oil seal is leaking (fix the oil leak first, may require the
diff replacing if the pinion seal has been leaking for a long time and
the oil level has been allowed to get low)
Engine and gearbox have oil leaks, suggest washing off and rechecking
Those are not wear and tear.
In terms of the suspension stuff, that list suggests you need new shocks/dampers all round and the wishbone arms.
This seems odd:
NSR and OSR lower shock absorber bushes have been fitted incorrectly
Does an MOT history check show any suspension stuff? That suggests work has been done before on the suspension which seems even more strange for a car with that little mileage.
Bear in mind an MOT done by a selling garage either in house or up the road at the place they take all their sale cars is unlikely to be as thorough as one you get yourself. Any small issue which is not a major is likely to be overlooked by them.
One of the work will be warranty, the suspension has wear, nothing unormal on an old car and certainly no worse than you would find on anything German which appear to be far worse usually failing mots, the most common Jaguar failure for us on suspension is the rear link arms where the boot plots but still no wear.
A warranty will only cover a failed component and again in our experience they won’t cover engine oil leaks
So your left with either the dealer picking up the tab or yourself, the best way to work out what’s needed is a decent mot but I suspect most will be advisory items.
A warranty will only cover a failed component and again in our experience they won’t cover engine oil leaks
So your left with either the dealer picking up the tab or yourself, the best way to work out what’s needed is a decent mot but I suspect most will be advisory items.
You certainly have a case OP.
The car sounds borderline unroadworthy
One course of action would be:
- Get an independent report on the car
- Ask dealer to fix the problems found
- If he does - fine
- If not, reject it as not fit for purpose
Don't get dragged down the 'warranty' rabbit hole. Any warranty is in addition to (not instead of) your rights under the CRA 2015 and is invariably weaker in its benefits to you.
a link here - there's loads more reading on the internet
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tips-advice/34744/re...
The car sounds borderline unroadworthy
One course of action would be:
- Get an independent report on the car
- Ask dealer to fix the problems found
- If he does - fine
- If not, reject it as not fit for purpose
Don't get dragged down the 'warranty' rabbit hole. Any warranty is in addition to (not instead of) your rights under the CRA 2015 and is invariably weaker in its benefits to you.
a link here - there's loads more reading on the internet
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tips-advice/34744/re...
wolf1 said:
Did the alignment place actually tell you what would need changing? As the list from the second garage reads like a kwick fit/ rapid fit bend the customer over and empty their wallet job.
The garage that gave me a list of issues is a jaguar specialist garage. I would have assumed something similar but before this I did take it to a completely different garage for the alignment who were the ones that refused to perform it due to the play in the suspension. This is why I feel that there is definitely an issue. I'm also getting noises out of the front wheels whenever I turn so it's definitely an issue there.Surely if you try and exercise your rights, the selling garage will just point to the MOT they had done prior to sale and say it was satisfactory at the time?
I don’t doubt for a minute the report you’ve had, or that the MOT may have been the blind eye type but I suspect this could be difficult. I also can’t see how a seal isn’t a wear and tear item. Seals age, wear (especially when sealing against a rotating component) and leak.
I’d push hard for the dealer to fix under CRA but I think it’s going to be hard going. Good luck anyway.
I don’t doubt for a minute the report you’ve had, or that the MOT may have been the blind eye type but I suspect this could be difficult. I also can’t see how a seal isn’t a wear and tear item. Seals age, wear (especially when sealing against a rotating component) and leak.
I’d push hard for the dealer to fix under CRA but I think it’s going to be hard going. Good luck anyway.
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