The Demise of Trainer Jet Display Teams
Discussion
With the upcoming retirement of the Hawk T1 fleet, it's worth taking a moment to think about all the obsolescent jet trainers out there that are coming to the end of their lifespan and what that means for the airshow circuit:
The Italian Frecce Tricolori team are switching from their MB-339 into the much delayed M.345 HET so they look to be set up for the future well, UAE still fly the old MB339.
South Korea fly their relatively new T-50 so look to be in business for some time.
Japan still has life in their T4 fleet but they rarely leave the Islands.
Spains Patrulla Aguila are still flying their 40 year old C-101s with no end in sight.
The Finnish Midnight Hawk fleet has clicked over 40 years with no replacement planned, with the Saudis and the Indian fleet not far behind.
Frances Patrouille de France and Asas de Portugal are still operating Alphajets which are being phased out of use by all users.
Britains Red Arrows famously do not have a replacement lined up for their Hawks.
Sweden still fly the Saab 105 for perhaps one more season with nothing lined up to replace it.
Canadas Snowbirds probably fly the oldest fleet, being the only remaining user of the CT-114 Tutor.
Switzerland fly the F5 in their Patrouille Suisse squad and Turkey use them in the Turkish Stars, which are being phased out of use.
Not many nations can afford a separate display team made up from front line fighters, it seems to be mainly just the Russians and Americans.
It seems to me that in 5-10 years there be less than a handful of display teams flying Jet trainers, wouldn't that be a shame. What do you think the reason for this all seeming to happen at once is, and is there a solution or even a reason to continue?
The Italian Frecce Tricolori team are switching from their MB-339 into the much delayed M.345 HET so they look to be set up for the future well, UAE still fly the old MB339.
South Korea fly their relatively new T-50 so look to be in business for some time.
Japan still has life in their T4 fleet but they rarely leave the Islands.
Spains Patrulla Aguila are still flying their 40 year old C-101s with no end in sight.
The Finnish Midnight Hawk fleet has clicked over 40 years with no replacement planned, with the Saudis and the Indian fleet not far behind.
Frances Patrouille de France and Asas de Portugal are still operating Alphajets which are being phased out of use by all users.
Britains Red Arrows famously do not have a replacement lined up for their Hawks.
Sweden still fly the Saab 105 for perhaps one more season with nothing lined up to replace it.
Canadas Snowbirds probably fly the oldest fleet, being the only remaining user of the CT-114 Tutor.
Switzerland fly the F5 in their Patrouille Suisse squad and Turkey use them in the Turkish Stars, which are being phased out of use.
Not many nations can afford a separate display team made up from front line fighters, it seems to be mainly just the Russians and Americans.
It seems to me that in 5-10 years there be less than a handful of display teams flying Jet trainers, wouldn't that be a shame. What do you think the reason for this all seeming to happen at once is, and is there a solution or even a reason to continue?
Edited by Jake899 on Wednesday 22 December 12:54
The Saudi Falcons team (7 ship of Hawk T-65's) are looking to swap from the obsolete T-65 (RAF T1 equivalent - like the Red Arrows) to the newer T-165 (RAF Hawk T2 equivalent) and was putting together a request for a "display" version of the T-165 as it's too heavily, has a slower roll rate and has "too much" avionics for a display jet, according to the RSAF anyway.
If they do decide to stump up the money it "could" open the door for the RAF to jump onboard and upgrade the Red Arrows to a "display only" modded T2.
If they do decide to stump up the money it "could" open the door for the RAF to jump onboard and upgrade the Red Arrows to a "display only" modded T2.
Would new build Hawk T1s be an option for both the RAF and RSAF ? And perhaps the other operators whose display aircraft are nearing end of life.
Surely that would be cheaper and simpler than designing a stripped down T2 with the constraints that make it unsuitable for close formation aeros redesigned. Or does the tooling to build T1s no longer exist ?
Surely that would be cheaper and simpler than designing a stripped down T2 with the constraints that make it unsuitable for close formation aeros redesigned. Or does the tooling to build T1s no longer exist ?
The reds have life in the existing airframes for another 10ish years, after that is yet to be decided, as mentioned above the Saudi's are looking at using some of their 165 fleet. An airframe of the t1 / 65 standard could be built, it would be the redesign for all the obsolete equipment that would stop it for what would essentially be 25 off to cover both UK and KSA requirements.
Edited by Zag_a_muffin on Wednesday 22 December 16:25
Zag_a_muffin said:
The reds have life in the existing airframes for another 10ish years, after that is yet to be decided, as mentioned above the Saudi's are looking at using some of their 165 fleet. An airframe of the t1 / 65 standard could be built, it would be the redesign for all the obsolete equipment that would stop it for what would essentially be 25 off to cover both UK and KSA requirements.
How many single seater Hawks were built? Only a few dozen, and that must have required far more modification. Edited by Zag_a_muffin on Wednesday 22 December 16:25
Jake899 said:
Japan still has life in their T4 fleet but they rarely leave the Islands.
I've actually seen the JDF team display on one of those rare overseas visits.But as to the OP question, I think the days of the formation display team, flying anything, are numbered.
With a lot of the training being done synthetically now, for the reduced requirement of pilots, as there is an undoubted move to UAV's for many roles, it will be difficult to financially justify dedicated display teams in the future.
The RAF was once seen as the premier flying training scheme, which many foreign air forces sent pilots to, but its now a mere shadow of that era, and has been largely contracted out to private commercial companies to operate. These companies are not contracted to provide a display team.
Despite the past history, there's pretty much no longer any real justification for the RAF to still have the Reds in a RAF that has been reduced to the level it currently is at.
shakotan said:
sherman said:
Would 10 large red drones be the way to go once the current red arrows fleet retire?
It would be about as entertaining.Let's just say their routine hasn't exactly changed much over the years...
I did used to make an effort to watch the Swiss back in the day, when they were still flying the Hunter, otherwise you'd have to go back to the early 80's for the last time the Canadian AF based in Germany last flew one of their 5-ship RCAF Starfighter display teams for a formation team to make me smile.....
Controversial statement here, but once I saw the Blue Angels close up at Finningley one year the Reds became a way to get out of the show a little quicker as they were always the last thing on, they are magnificent at what they do, but the Angels are far and away the best display team I have ever seen.
What I like about the Arrows however is the stuff you don't see so easily, the stuff behind the crowd line, the things they do to get into formation, and the ability they have to even make transitioning between formations look graceful and utterly deliberate. Very RAF!!
What I like about the Arrows however is the stuff you don't see so easily, the stuff behind the crowd line, the things they do to get into formation, and the ability they have to even make transitioning between formations look graceful and utterly deliberate. Very RAF!!
Dr Jekyll said:
Do I understand this correctly, Finnish trainee pilots used to go straight from piston trainers to the Hawk? I'd heard that the Hawk was relatively easy to fly for an advanced trainer, maybe a bit too easy as preparation for combat jets, but that sounds impressive.
Yes they still do, the pipeline is VL Vinka/Grob Tutor then straight to Hawk, then on to frontline fighters. Finland has its own Hawk simulator centre, and their Hawk cockpits are considerably more modern than the British ones.Interestingly, F35 operators are likely to go straight from prop trainers and basic flight techniques directly to F35, eliminating the need for a jet trainer altogether.
Jake899 said:
With the upcoming retirement of the Hawk T1 fleet, it's worth taking a moment to think about all the obsolescent jet trainers out there that are coming to the end of their lifespan and what that means for the airshow circuit:
The Italian Frecce Tricolori team are switching from their MB-339 into the much delayed M.345 HET so they look to be set up for the future well, UAE still fly the old MB339.
South Korea fly their relatively new T-50 so look to be in business for some time.
Japan still has life in their T4 fleet but they rarely leave the Islands.
Spains Patrulla Aguila are still flying their 40 year old C-101s with no end in sight.
The Finnish Midnight Hawk fleet has clicked over 40 years with no replacement planned, with the Saudis and the Indian fleet not far behind.
Frances Patrouille de France and Asas de Portugal are still operating Alphajets which are being phased out of use by all users.
Britains Red Arrows famously do not have a replacement lined up for their Hawks.
Sweden still fly the Saab 105 for perhaps one more season with nothing lined up to replace it.
Canadas Snowbirds probably fly the oldest fleet, being the only remaining user of the CT-114 Tutor.
Switzerland fly the F5 in their Patrouille Suisse squad and Turkey use them in the Turkish Stars, which are being phased out of use.
Not many nations can afford a separate display team made up from front line fighters, it seems to be mainly just the Russians and Americans.
It seems to me that in 5-10 years there be less than a handful of display teams flying Jet trainers, wouldn't that be a shame. What do you think the reason for this all seeming to happen at once is, and is there a solution or even a reason to continue?
The reason it’s happened is because simulation is so advanced and realist these days why do you need to put pilots in a jet training aircraft. The Italian Frecce Tricolori team are switching from their MB-339 into the much delayed M.345 HET so they look to be set up for the future well, UAE still fly the old MB339.
South Korea fly their relatively new T-50 so look to be in business for some time.
Japan still has life in their T4 fleet but they rarely leave the Islands.
Spains Patrulla Aguila are still flying their 40 year old C-101s with no end in sight.
The Finnish Midnight Hawk fleet has clicked over 40 years with no replacement planned, with the Saudis and the Indian fleet not far behind.
Frances Patrouille de France and Asas de Portugal are still operating Alphajets which are being phased out of use by all users.
Britains Red Arrows famously do not have a replacement lined up for their Hawks.
Sweden still fly the Saab 105 for perhaps one more season with nothing lined up to replace it.
Canadas Snowbirds probably fly the oldest fleet, being the only remaining user of the CT-114 Tutor.
Switzerland fly the F5 in their Patrouille Suisse squad and Turkey use them in the Turkish Stars, which are being phased out of use.
Not many nations can afford a separate display team made up from front line fighters, it seems to be mainly just the Russians and Americans.
It seems to me that in 5-10 years there be less than a handful of display teams flying Jet trainers, wouldn't that be a shame. What do you think the reason for this all seeming to happen at once is, and is there a solution or even a reason to continue?
Edited by Jake899 on Wednesday 22 December 12:54
Simply stick them in the simulator, get them up to speed and stick them straight in to the real fighter.
Effectively the jet fighter training aircraft is no longer needed.
MB140 said:
The reason it’s happened is because simulation is so advanced and realist these days why do you need to put pilots in a jet training aircraft.
Simply stick them in the simulator, get them up to speed and stick them straight in to the real fighter.
Effectively the jet fighter training aircraft is no longer needed.
I'm not sure I agree that the jet trainer is no longer needed as such.Simply stick them in the simulator, get them up to speed and stick them straight in to the real fighter.
Effectively the jet fighter training aircraft is no longer needed.
I agree with you that simulator technology has come a long way, but I believe that there will always be a need for pilots to experience the physicality of real flight, the fact that mothers favourite boy is flying through the sky will always give a different experience to sitting safely in a simulator.
I can, however, see in the future Air Forces adopting a system where they have lead-in trainers, then advanced trainers that also can operate as cost effective strike aircraft for missions in uncontested skies. There is big political penalties behind sending expensive fifth generation fighters to attack single assets, a car, a tent etc. Combining a cheaper strike fleet with a training capacity make a lot of sense.
However this doesn't leave room for display jets.
I believe if you take the Red Arrows for example, that their contribution to Britain's image is worth far more than their positive impact at air shows. Having a jet display team does a lot to broadcast your abilities as a nation. It's a lot like trying to quantify the value of product marketing. It for sure has a positive benefit, but is it financially worthwhile?
Up and till now, the answer has to be yes, otherwise so many countries would not be maintaining and flying display jets. The problem is that while they may make sense from a trade/image sense, they are making less sense militarily, so countries no longer have available fleets from which to siphon off display jets. And when you get to the point of asking is it worth buying a jet solely for the purpose of trade/politics, then the answer appears to drift into the "no" column.
Jake899 said:
Yes they still do, the pipeline is VL Vinka/Grob Tutor then straight to Hawk, then on to frontline fighters. Finland has its own Hawk simulator centre, __and their Hawk cockpits are considerably more modern than the British ones.__
Just to clarify that - the Finnish upgraded "Hawk T1" cockpit, as fitted to their Mk51/51A/66 Hawks, is far more modern than the RAF's Hawk T1 cockpit but the RAF's Hawk T2 cockpit is then far more modern than the "updated T1" cockpits of the Finnish Hawks. So with the two versions the RAF students currently get "intro to jet characteristics" with a Hawk T1 and then "Intro to modern Avionics" in the Hawk T2 whilst Finnish pilots get everything lumped together.Which training system is currently considered to be better I don't know but once the RAF's T1 fleet finally gets scrapped we'll be doing the same as the Finn's.
Krikkit said:
Seight_Returns said:
How many F35s would you actually need for 9 of them to be almost continually available for the duration of the workup and display season every year ?
Given the maintenance at the moment, at least 36!Possible I guess, but a lot of resources!
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