Registering a classic with no documents - how?
Discussion
Potential can of worms here....
I'm helping an old neighbour with a classic he has been tinkering with for nearly two decades, slowly restoring and recommissioning ....
The good news is the car is nearly finished and ready for the road again.
The less good news is that it looks like he has lost ALL the documents that relate to it.... Apparently there used to be a file, but it looks like it might have been dumped in an office clear out some years ago.
Initially I didn't view this as a problem, assuming we could just apply for a new V5 from DVLA.... BUT... it turns out there is no registration number for the car and it's never been registered in this country. It was imported from the USA decades ago as a project and has been under restoration ever since.....
Does anybody have experience of exactly where we go from here?
Obviously there is a chassis number and engine number, plus there is a UK owners club, but I'd really appreciate a steer on where to start!
I'm helping an old neighbour with a classic he has been tinkering with for nearly two decades, slowly restoring and recommissioning ....
The good news is the car is nearly finished and ready for the road again.
The less good news is that it looks like he has lost ALL the documents that relate to it.... Apparently there used to be a file, but it looks like it might have been dumped in an office clear out some years ago.
Initially I didn't view this as a problem, assuming we could just apply for a new V5 from DVLA.... BUT... it turns out there is no registration number for the car and it's never been registered in this country. It was imported from the USA decades ago as a project and has been under restoration ever since.....
Does anybody have experience of exactly where we go from here?
Obviously there is a chassis number and engine number, plus there is a UK owners club, but I'd really appreciate a steer on where to start!
Hi
From recollection you need some evidence of existence, in documentation form. Otherwise you have to get help from the club you noted, then the DVLA may register it as a “new registration” and allocate an age correct reg number (I gather thats why you need the club…to identify likely age/year).
I have never done it myself but I have read about it a few times in various forums. Good luck.
From recollection you need some evidence of existence, in documentation form. Otherwise you have to get help from the club you noted, then the DVLA may register it as a “new registration” and allocate an age correct reg number (I gather thats why you need the club…to identify likely age/year).
I have never done it myself but I have read about it a few times in various forums. Good luck.
You'll need the manufacturer or a club to identify the date of the car and then get it MOTd and then apply through the DVLA.
In your neighbour's case, the big problem will be that the car has been imported from the USA. To register it you will have to prove that duty has been paid when it was imported. If your neighbour has no paperwork to prove it's been paid then it will need to be paid before it can be registered, and it will be paid on the car's value today. (I have experience of this)
In your neighbour's case, the big problem will be that the car has been imported from the USA. To register it you will have to prove that duty has been paid when it was imported. If your neighbour has no paperwork to prove it's been paid then it will need to be paid before it can be registered, and it will be paid on the car's value today. (I have experience of this)
Its likely not to be as difficult as you think.
To proove age instead of having foreign registration document you'll need the help from an appropriate owners club (if they are recognised by the DVLA) or the manufactuer may issue a dating certificate for a modest fee.
You'll need a NOVA certificate from Customs. For most cars you can do this online, but in your case download the NOVA1 form. Fill in what you can and write a covering letter explaining why. Chances are there won't be any duty to pay.
Then submit application in the usual way.
To proove age instead of having foreign registration document you'll need the help from an appropriate owners club (if they are recognised by the DVLA) or the manufactuer may issue a dating certificate for a modest fee.
You'll need a NOVA certificate from Customs. For most cars you can do this online, but in your case download the NOVA1 form. Fill in what you can and write a covering letter explaining why. Chances are there won't be any duty to pay.
Then submit application in the usual way.
Regarding the NOVA situation, this replaced the old C&E 386 document system.
I've generally found the HMRC department in Northen Ireland to be suprisingly helpful in one off cases like this.
There are literally thousands of cars and bikes that were imported pre NOVA, you have to go through this system even if you have the old style documents.
A tip for anyone with a project lying around is to get the NOVA paperwork while it looks like it's not worth anything!
I've generally found the HMRC department in Northen Ireland to be suprisingly helpful in one off cases like this.
There are literally thousands of cars and bikes that were imported pre NOVA, you have to go through this system even if you have the old style documents.
A tip for anyone with a project lying around is to get the NOVA paperwork while it looks like it's not worth anything!
Some very useful and less useful advice so far.
First off, what is the car and how old is it? Secondly when was it imported?
Before your neighbour does anything, get them to have it dated by either the manufacturer or probably easier, the owner's club.
Then get it NOVA'd. As others have said, this should be straightforward.
It may not need an MOT. If it is over 40 years old, it won't. However, it will need to be taxed. Yes, over forty years old it is registered as 'Historic' and tax free. But as I found out with my 40yo Trabant (also with no paperwork) it has to be registered as PLG first, six month VED paid and then once you have the V5c, send it off again
with the vehicle class changed to 'Historic' and await a VED refund.
It should get an age related plate, Trabitha got a Harrogate 'V' suffix despite living in Devon and never being near Yorkshire. It's what they have available at the time.
The biggest pita is dealing with DVLA. If something is wrong, they will reject the application, but unhelpfully not tell you why. As others have said HMRC in Northern Ireland are very helpful with the NOVA.
First off, what is the car and how old is it? Secondly when was it imported?
Before your neighbour does anything, get them to have it dated by either the manufacturer or probably easier, the owner's club.
Then get it NOVA'd. As others have said, this should be straightforward.
It may not need an MOT. If it is over 40 years old, it won't. However, it will need to be taxed. Yes, over forty years old it is registered as 'Historic' and tax free. But as I found out with my 40yo Trabant (also with no paperwork) it has to be registered as PLG first, six month VED paid and then once you have the V5c, send it off again
with the vehicle class changed to 'Historic' and await a VED refund.It should get an age related plate, Trabitha got a Harrogate 'V' suffix despite living in Devon and never being near Yorkshire. It's what they have available at the time.
The biggest pita is dealing with DVLA. If something is wrong, they will reject the application, but unhelpfully not tell you why. As others have said HMRC in Northern Ireland are very helpful with the NOVA.
...another one regarding the DVLA forms adding to the post above.
If you send a dating certificate they may return the application asking for the title.
I print off a covering page with a list of the things they've asked for and say:
'ATTACHED' or whatever, and then say something like 'NO TITLE, DATING CERTIFICATE SUBSTUTUTED.'
Otherwise things can be going backwards and forwards for weeks.
If you send a dating certificate they may return the application asking for the title.
I print off a covering page with a list of the things they've asked for and say:
'ATTACHED' or whatever, and then say something like 'NO TITLE, DATING CERTIFICATE SUBSTUTUTED.'
Otherwise things can be going backwards and forwards for weeks.
Very interesting and useful advice! Thank you.
Yes, the vehicle is over 40 years old.
With regards Northern Ireland office - he's based in the South of England, can he, or is it still worth sending applications to the NI HMRC office for NOVA?
To sum up then,
1. Do no more work to keep value sensible (it's not yet roadworthy, so wouldn't pass an MoT in present state).
2. Get vehicle dated by Owners Club or manufacturer with supporting evidence.
3. Download and complete NOVA1 form.
4. Send NOVA documents with covering letter to HMRC Northern Ireland.
5. Once NOVA returned, submit application to DVLA for 'first registration of vehicle', supplying MoT exemption document etc. but paying RFL.
6. Once V5C returns, change tax class from PLG to historic.
Sound about right? I think I can help him get that lot done...
So is he going to need to insure it on the chassis number at point of DVLA application so he can send insurance certificate etc?
Yes, the vehicle is over 40 years old.
With regards Northern Ireland office - he's based in the South of England, can he, or is it still worth sending applications to the NI HMRC office for NOVA?
To sum up then,
1. Do no more work to keep value sensible (it's not yet roadworthy, so wouldn't pass an MoT in present state).
2. Get vehicle dated by Owners Club or manufacturer with supporting evidence.
3. Download and complete NOVA1 form.
4. Send NOVA documents with covering letter to HMRC Northern Ireland.
5. Once NOVA returned, submit application to DVLA for 'first registration of vehicle', supplying MoT exemption document etc. but paying RFL.
6. Once V5C returns, change tax class from PLG to historic.
Sound about right? I think I can help him get that lot done...
So is he going to need to insure it on the chassis number at point of DVLA application so he can send insurance certificate etc?
Yes, you've pretty much got it. You don't need to worry about contacting NI, that's where all the NOVAs go. They'll contact you if they need to. Good advice too about sending DVLA a checklist. They're probably not stupid, but they work best if you treat them if they are. Seriously, don't use words of more than two syllables.
You pretty much have that sorted, but feel free to PM if there are any questions down the line.
You pretty much have that sorted, but feel free to PM if there are any questions down the line.
Think long and hard before going anywhere near DVLA if it is imported without documents. I know it's the right thing to do but it may be a very big mistake, you can't un f
k that decision.
If it is a UK car it may be possible to find a copy of the required paperwork on 'the bay' so I'm told.
If DVLA were competent / functioning / working / capable / understanding then it would be the obvious first port of call, however..............
k that decision.If it is a UK car it may be possible to find a copy of the required paperwork on 'the bay' so I'm told.
If DVLA were competent / functioning / working / capable / understanding then it would be the obvious first port of call, however..............
I’d still be interested to know what it is.
For example if it is a car from the British Heritage then if I will be easy to come by.
Either way I’d get as much info on it myself first. If for example it’s a US brand then get the owners club to help. There’s lots of bobble hat sites on a lot of old marques
For example if it is a car from the British Heritage then if I will be easy to come by.
Either way I’d get as much info on it myself first. If for example it’s a US brand then get the owners club to help. There’s lots of bobble hat sites on a lot of old marques
I had the same situation with a couple of Lambrettas, imported years ago from Malta.
As they were Spanish built the engine and frame numbers were the same but aiui the frame/chassis number is what counts.
Anyhow the Lambretta Owners Club has a database of numbers and dates, who sorted it all out for a very reasonable fee, bearing in mind once you have applied and failed there is no second chance.
I am sure there are people in many Owners Clubs who have experience with this problem and that is where I would start.
As they were Spanish built the engine and frame numbers were the same but aiui the frame/chassis number is what counts.
Anyhow the Lambretta Owners Club has a database of numbers and dates, who sorted it all out for a very reasonable fee, bearing in mind once you have applied and failed there is no second chance.
I am sure there are people in many Owners Clubs who have experience with this problem and that is where I would start.
Useful chat with a charming Irish lady at HMRC this morning who is sending a NOVA1 form and gave constructive advice on how to fill it in and what to send as supporting documents. Apparently it's not uncommon for non-registered historic imports to pop up from time to time and they're used to dealing with it, which sounds promising. We'll see where that goes......
Working on finding the right contact and owners club to organise an inspection / dating.
The car in question isn't massively exciting I'm afraid - late 1970s Italian and built in Italy, likely exported straight to the 'States and sold there new. Neighbour has been encouraged to dig deeper for any related paperwork and collate any relevant information on timeline of ownership.
Working on finding the right contact and owners club to organise an inspection / dating.
The car in question isn't massively exciting I'm afraid - late 1970s Italian and built in Italy, likely exported straight to the 'States and sold there new. Neighbour has been encouraged to dig deeper for any related paperwork and collate any relevant information on timeline of ownership.
My Trabant never had a physical exam. I had to email pictures of each side taken from the front and rear quarter, the vin plate, the engine number and the front and rear of the car.
A week later I got a letter of validation and date of build from the IFA club. Along with the NOVA (completed online at the time) and other Czech paperwork and a creative letter explaining why it had been imported ten years ago and never notified, I then had six months of to and fro with DVLA.
Ultimately though, DVLA want the vehicle details, proof from NOVA that no duty or VAT is due (or has been paid) which they can do by accessing the HMRC with the reference number you give them (although they don't ask for it) and verification of age for an age related plate. Which sounds simple and is, just DVLA need to complicate it for their own amusement.
A week later I got a letter of validation and date of build from the IFA club. Along with the NOVA (completed online at the time) and other Czech paperwork and a creative letter explaining why it had been imported ten years ago and never notified, I then had six months of to and fro with DVLA.
Ultimately though, DVLA want the vehicle details, proof from NOVA that no duty or VAT is due (or has been paid) which they can do by accessing the HMRC with the reference number you give them (although they don't ask for it) and verification of age for an age related plate. Which sounds simple and is, just DVLA need to complicate it for their own amusement.
Well, nearly 5 months later and finally a positive update... New V5C has arrived!
Car is now officially registered in this country.
For the benefit of anyone else planning to undertake the same exercise, it isn't actually that complicated... the DVLA are pretty picky about the documents they'll accept though, so it pays to get them right first time (my first application was rejected for insufficient information on the Club dating certificate).
As the many helpful posters described above, we started with a NOVA application in paper form with as much information as we knew and a covering letter to explain why the car hadn't been notified previously. That produced a NOVA reference and approval to apply to DVLA for registration fairly quickly (a couple of weeks), with confirmation that there was no duty to pay - result!
With that, we then applied to DVLA for registration using the V55/5 form, again with as much information as was known. We didn't need a Certificate of Conformity as the car is over 10 years old and we also didn't need an MoT as, being over 40 years old, it's MoT exempt, so we supplied a form V112 'Declaration of Exemption from MoT' in it's place. We didn't actually need to insure it either, though we did so that it didn't potentially delay any taxation. Again, a covering letter with the NOVA reference that also explained why no original non-UK registration document was available accompanied the form, together with the fee for registration (£55). There was no first year's tax to pay as the application was made for tax class 'Historic' at zero rate.
After that there was a bit of back and forth with letters as we drilled down to a Club dating certificate they'd accept and finally they came back and said they'd need the car inspected.....
They sent a contractor to do this who took some pictures of the car and the various VIN plates and numbers and then a couple of weeks later a new V5C arrived, correctly recording the year of manufacture, vehicle details and historic tax class. Despite saying in the initial application paperwork that they wouldn't return supporting documents they actually sent these back too.
So all in all, the total cost has been quite a lot of time but only £55 plus the cost of the authorised Club dating certificate.
Next step, finish off mechanical jobs and hit the road for the summer!
Car is now officially registered in this country.
For the benefit of anyone else planning to undertake the same exercise, it isn't actually that complicated... the DVLA are pretty picky about the documents they'll accept though, so it pays to get them right first time (my first application was rejected for insufficient information on the Club dating certificate).
As the many helpful posters described above, we started with a NOVA application in paper form with as much information as we knew and a covering letter to explain why the car hadn't been notified previously. That produced a NOVA reference and approval to apply to DVLA for registration fairly quickly (a couple of weeks), with confirmation that there was no duty to pay - result!
With that, we then applied to DVLA for registration using the V55/5 form, again with as much information as was known. We didn't need a Certificate of Conformity as the car is over 10 years old and we also didn't need an MoT as, being over 40 years old, it's MoT exempt, so we supplied a form V112 'Declaration of Exemption from MoT' in it's place. We didn't actually need to insure it either, though we did so that it didn't potentially delay any taxation. Again, a covering letter with the NOVA reference that also explained why no original non-UK registration document was available accompanied the form, together with the fee for registration (£55). There was no first year's tax to pay as the application was made for tax class 'Historic' at zero rate.
After that there was a bit of back and forth with letters as we drilled down to a Club dating certificate they'd accept and finally they came back and said they'd need the car inspected.....
They sent a contractor to do this who took some pictures of the car and the various VIN plates and numbers and then a couple of weeks later a new V5C arrived, correctly recording the year of manufacture, vehicle details and historic tax class. Despite saying in the initial application paperwork that they wouldn't return supporting documents they actually sent these back too.
So all in all, the total cost has been quite a lot of time but only £55 plus the cost of the authorised Club dating certificate.
Next step, finish off mechanical jobs and hit the road for the summer!
larrylamb11 said:
Well, nearly 5 months later and finally a positive update... New V5C has arrived!
For the benefit of anyone else planning to undertake the same exercise, it isn't actually that complicated... the DVLA are pretty picky about the documents they'll accept though, so it pays to get them right first time (my first application was rejected for insufficient information on the Club dating certificate).
My experience also, albeit 20-odd years ago. Play their game and they'll reward you with a level of competence that chat on forums would lead you to believe isn't possible.For the benefit of anyone else planning to undertake the same exercise, it isn't actually that complicated... the DVLA are pretty picky about the documents they'll accept though, so it pays to get them right first time (my first application was rejected for insufficient information on the Club dating certificate).
Good work, OP. Now, WHAT CAR IS IT??????
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