Ageing of Electronics.. The End of Classic Cars?
Discussion
Every car post 1980 has at least one computer onboard. More modern cars (post around year 2000) have Body Control Modules, which are printed circuit boards with software that control the lights, climate control etc.
These electronics won't last forever, and when they do eventually fail surely they turn any post 1980s car into a giant paperweight with no solution to get going again?
Are there any economically viable solutions out there to keep modern cars going for decades to come?
If we take a mid 90s Jaguar XJ as an example, the gearbox is controlled using a module. Who can provide a new circuit board and program it once it fails? As far as I can tell, no-one.
Please someone tell me I'm wrong!
These electronics won't last forever, and when they do eventually fail surely they turn any post 1980s car into a giant paperweight with no solution to get going again?
Are there any economically viable solutions out there to keep modern cars going for decades to come?
If we take a mid 90s Jaguar XJ as an example, the gearbox is controlled using a module. Who can provide a new circuit board and program it once it fails? As far as I can tell, no-one.
Please someone tell me I'm wrong!
Not this again, I have run old cars for 40 years and have heard this for almost all those years.
First was electronic ignition, next was cats, then ecus and now its petrol running out as no one will sell it when we all drive electric cars. It wont happen there will always be a way of fixing old cars. That's how come there are still cars on the road that have been out of production for over a hundred years. You don't really think a few failing capacitors will kill off old cars do you?
First was electronic ignition, next was cats, then ecus and now its petrol running out as no one will sell it when we all drive electric cars. It wont happen there will always be a way of fixing old cars. That's how come there are still cars on the road that have been out of production for over a hundred years. You don't really think a few failing capacitors will kill off old cars do you?
ARHarh said:
Not this again, I have run old cars for 40 years and have heard this for almost all those years.
First was electronic ignition, next was cats, then ecus and now its petrol running out as no one will sell it when we all drive electric cars. It wont happen there will always be a way of fixing old cars. That's how come there are still cars on the road that have been out of production for over a hundred years. You don't really think a few failing capacitors will kill off old cars do you?
Modern cars are a different proposition because of the design using integrated electronics.First was electronic ignition, next was cats, then ecus and now its petrol running out as no one will sell it when we all drive electric cars. It wont happen there will always be a way of fixing old cars. That's how come there are still cars on the road that have been out of production for over a hundred years. You don't really think a few failing capacitors will kill off old cars do you?
If the demand is there, specialists will cater for repairs or replacement modules, but it's going to be a more complex task than the older cars.
The most likely scenario is complete system replacement with aftermarket controlers, plus a supply from scrapyards who will be busy building up a stock of electronics, if they are thinking long term.
BlueComet said:
Every car post 1980 has at least one computer onboard. More modern cars (post around year 2000) have Body Control Modules, which are printed circuit boards with software that control the lights, climate control etc.
These electronics won't last forever, and when they do eventually fail surely they turn any post 1980s car into a giant paperweight with no solution to get going again?
Are there any economically viable solutions out there to keep modern cars going for decades to come?
Please someone tell me I'm wrong!
You're not wrong.These electronics won't last forever, and when they do eventually fail surely they turn any post 1980s car into a giant paperweight with no solution to get going again?
Are there any economically viable solutions out there to keep modern cars going for decades to come?
Please someone tell me I'm wrong!
I think there are already some specialists that can do stuff with early ECU's for 1980's and early 90's stuff, and with only an ECU, some of this stuff can be moved over to aftermarket for engine control.
As you say, once you get into the mid to late 90's and beyond, things get a lot more complicated, and I doubt we'll see too many post-millenial made cars surviving into long term 30+ year survival as classic cars.
These era cars will also be the ones under most pressure with increasing legislation with emissions and other factors of the eco-nutters wanting to remove from the road.
My gut feeling is its going to be very hard to run a post-2000 era car as a classic in say, 20 years time, compared to one from earlier decades, especially pre-1990 made.
At least they don't rust overnight anymore..... But this Jonah of a story comes round every few years, as mentioned.
I interviewed Bob Berridge a few years ago , who at the time was running a couple of Gp C cars including the fearsome Mercedes C11. I asked about the challenges of running such a complex car from the early Nineties , with period IT . His reply was illuminating -' In period Mercedes took a team of 18 Bosch technicians; I have one bloke with a lap top . It's not a problem . '
I interviewed Bob Berridge a few years ago , who at the time was running a couple of Gp C cars including the fearsome Mercedes C11. I asked about the challenges of running such a complex car from the early Nineties , with period IT . His reply was illuminating -' In period Mercedes took a team of 18 Bosch technicians; I have one bloke with a lap top . It's not a problem . '
This was said about fuel injection when it was introduced far to complex for anyone to ever be able to fix it. Now ask your average mechanic to setup some points and they will run and hide under their bench. Ask them to sort out an injection problem and they will be fine. What seems complex now will be normal in 10 years time.
coppice said:
At least they don't rust overnight anymore..... But this Jonah of a story comes round every few years, as mentioned.
I interviewed Bob Berridge a few years ago , who at the time was running a couple of Gp C cars including the fearsome Mercedes C11. I asked about the challenges of running such a complex car from the early Nineties , with period IT . His reply was illuminating -' In period Mercedes took a team of 18 Bosch technicians; I have one bloke with a lap top . It's not a problem . '
It's not really a fair comparison to use a relatively simple Group C car with a modern road car. Keeping a Group C car going electrically/electronically is a piece of cake. Most of the running Group C cars now have modern ECU's inside the original electronics boxes and are really only managing the engine control, everything else is mechanical and conventional switching. Modern ECU's are incredibly cheap and far superior to the bleeding edge tech the cars were using for their time when first raced.I interviewed Bob Berridge a few years ago , who at the time was running a couple of Gp C cars including the fearsome Mercedes C11. I asked about the challenges of running such a complex car from the early Nineties , with period IT . His reply was illuminating -' In period Mercedes took a team of 18 Bosch technicians; I have one bloke with a lap top . It's not a problem . '
Even a modern MEL car is relatively simple and easy to support once you have the correct relationship with the manufacturer and have the software to interface with it. If it goes wrong and the parts are no longer available or you lose the support, you can make something else aftermarket or bespoke to do the job. It's a very different proposition to a modern road car situation.
Most road cars simply wont have the inherent value to enable the spend required, unless they are something special, to develop the required replacement. Most modern cars are just appliances, and the younger buyers are just using them as a tool for a job. They are quite dull things emotionally compared to how cars were perceived in my youth 35 years ago. You just need to look at the current situation with a lack of supply of Integrated Circuits to see how things have changed in road cars, they are massively reliant on the electronics now compared to even 10 years ago.
So, if the electronics start to fail on these average older cars, they will mostly go to the scrapper, and unlike the earlier cars, most will mechanically be sound, but beyond economic repair because of the cost of the modules. It's definitely a change in lifecycle and I'm not sure taken as a whole life impact, a good thing. Electric cars are just the next step worse potentially, it will be interesting to see if the aftermarket world caters for these things or they are scrapped well before an ICE would be. We will know in 20 years.
ARHarh said:
This was said about fuel injection when it was introduced far to complex for anyone to ever be able to fix it. Now ask your average mechanic to setup some points and they will run and hide under their bench. Ask them to sort out an injection problem and they will be fine. What seems complex now will be normal in 10 years time.
Whilst the past can be useful to predict the future, things CAN also change.It's not obvious to me that keeping active radar, lane assist and modern clever dipping headlights (etc etc etc) across multiple manufacturers is going to be cost effective.
There are already horror stories of just how few garages can diagnose a merc soft-top that doesn't want to close - and that's before there is an issue of replacement parts.
ARHarh said:
This was said about fuel injection when it was introduced far to complex for anyone to ever be able to fix it. Now ask your average mechanic to setup some points and they will run and hide under their bench. Ask them to sort out an injection problem and they will be fine. What seems complex now will be normal in 10 years time.
When i started my work life in the 80's i was an electronics engineer working down to component level on complex analogue systems, that changed fairly quickly to a module swap job with early integrated circuit systems, then it became a throw the whole thing away scenario and buy the next generation replacement, because it was cheaper to do that (and brought benefits in efficiency) than train, equip and pay a skilled electronics engineer.The issue wont be people with the ability to work with the technology, it will be supply of the replacement parts. Once that runs out, unless the car is worth the investment/spend, it will be junked.
What is the average life cycle of a car these days (pre covid, because that has extended use a little)?
Youre also seeing this issue with much of the consumer electronics on the market today, its all built to last a certain time and then fails to be thrown out and replaced.
Look at the average TV from say 20 years ago, most all were crt with accessible and repairable electronics, compared to the latest 4k flat screen theres virtually nothing you can do with such stuff unless youre very au fait with it or an absolute brainbox.
Cars are definitely going the same way with the CAN system and its modules and most of them arent repairable as theyre sealed and potted especially where theyre subjected to moisture on the outside of the vehicle.
Id be tempted to think its a deliberate ploy to get you to replace your vehicle every ten years just because of simple part failure that writes the vehicle off.
The only way around it is to go buy some spares that may not be available in a few years to keep you going.
Think Ill stick to my pre 2000 stuff if its all the same.
Look at the average TV from say 20 years ago, most all were crt with accessible and repairable electronics, compared to the latest 4k flat screen theres virtually nothing you can do with such stuff unless youre very au fait with it or an absolute brainbox.
Cars are definitely going the same way with the CAN system and its modules and most of them arent repairable as theyre sealed and potted especially where theyre subjected to moisture on the outside of the vehicle.
Id be tempted to think its a deliberate ploy to get you to replace your vehicle every ten years just because of simple part failure that writes the vehicle off.
The only way around it is to go buy some spares that may not be available in a few years to keep you going.
Think Ill stick to my pre 2000 stuff if its all the same.
jsf said:
When i started my work life in the 80's i was an electronics engineer working down to component level on complex analogue systems, that changed fairly quickly to a module swap job with early integrated circuit systems, then it became a throw the whole thing away scenario and buy the next generation replacement, because it was cheaper to do that (and brought benefits in efficiency) than train, equip and pay a skilled electronics engineer.
The issue wont be people with the ability to work with the technology, it will be supply of the replacement parts. Once that runs out, unless the car is worth the investment/spend, it will be junked.
What is the average life cycle of a car these days (pre covid, because that has extended use a little)?
Or someone designs generic hardware components that tun emulators. The issue wont be people with the ability to work with the technology, it will be supply of the replacement parts. Once that runs out, unless the car is worth the investment/spend, it will be junked.
What is the average life cycle of a car these days (pre covid, because that has extended use a little)?
The only ecu I have known fail was due to a discrete component - capacitor, repaired using a decent quality one.
Failings like that are well known and relatively easy to rectify if the capacitor leak itself has not caused damage, has anyone had an ecu microprocessor or integrated circuit fail other than due to overvoltage or some other external influence?
The main problem I think will come from coding a secondhand unit, but even that is covered to a large degree these days.
Failings like that are well known and relatively easy to rectify if the capacitor leak itself has not caused damage, has anyone had an ecu microprocessor or integrated circuit fail other than due to overvoltage or some other external influence?
The main problem I think will come from coding a secondhand unit, but even that is covered to a large degree these days.
My experience is as one of the curators and repair team at a computer museum and we have quite a few machines with faults donated. Most 70's & 80's 8 bit stuff is surprisingly resilient and normally the RF capacitors on the mains input smoke but not much else
One problem was the move from lead solder to lead free and dendritic tin whiskers can grow to short out the fine legs on SMT CPU's etc causing sudden and total failure.
Sometimes this can be fixed by brushing, sometimes not.
Capacitors are another minefield. Some 80's tantalumn capacitors are known to fail suddenly to a dead short. The more commonly known electrolytic capacitor failure often comes about from not being used for years and may not be so much of a problem.
The real problem is getting your hands on technical data and replacing custom chips.
One problem was the move from lead solder to lead free and dendritic tin whiskers can grow to short out the fine legs on SMT CPU's etc causing sudden and total failure.
Sometimes this can be fixed by brushing, sometimes not.
Capacitors are another minefield. Some 80's tantalumn capacitors are known to fail suddenly to a dead short. The more commonly known electrolytic capacitor failure often comes about from not being used for years and may not be so much of a problem.
The real problem is getting your hands on technical data and replacing custom chips.
If there is enough interest then any original part can be re-made or replaced with a modern alternative.
Take the Ford Cosworth cars (3dr, Saph, Escort) for example, there's hardly a single part of the electronics and mechanicals that haven't been remade by specialists and enthusiasts - new looms for all parts of the car (engine, fan, alternator, fuel pump etc), upgraded closed loop fuelling, upgraded coil on plug, modern boost controllers, modern ECUs etc, remade fuel senders, refurbished clocks, remade fuel pump cradles, recast head and blocks, remade prop donuts, remade gaskets, 3d printed indicator clips and trim... The list is endless.
Take the Ford Cosworth cars (3dr, Saph, Escort) for example, there's hardly a single part of the electronics and mechanicals that haven't been remade by specialists and enthusiasts - new looms for all parts of the car (engine, fan, alternator, fuel pump etc), upgraded closed loop fuelling, upgraded coil on plug, modern boost controllers, modern ECUs etc, remade fuel senders, refurbished clocks, remade fuel pump cradles, recast head and blocks, remade prop donuts, remade gaskets, 3d printed indicator clips and trim... The list is endless.
Olivera said:
If there is enough interest then any original part can be re-made or replaced with a modern alternative.
Take the Ford Cosworth cars (3dr, Saph, Escort) for example, there's hardly a single part of the electronics and mechanicals that haven't been remade by specialists and enthusiasts - new looms for all parts of the car (engine, fan, alternator, fuel pump etc), upgraded closed loop fuelling, upgraded coil on plug, modern boost controllers, modern ECUs etc, remade fuel senders, refurbished clocks, remade fuel pump cradles, recast head and blocks, remade prop donuts, remade gaskets, 3d printed indicator clips and trim... The list is endless.
This is what will happen, with modern microcontrollers anything can be replicated reasonably easily. And as mentioned earlier most electronics fail due to abuse or descrete components failing easily fixed if you know 9what to look for. Take the Ford Cosworth cars (3dr, Saph, Escort) for example, there's hardly a single part of the electronics and mechanicals that haven't been remade by specialists and enthusiasts - new looms for all parts of the car (engine, fan, alternator, fuel pump etc), upgraded closed loop fuelling, upgraded coil on plug, modern boost controllers, modern ECUs etc, remade fuel senders, refurbished clocks, remade fuel pump cradles, recast head and blocks, remade prop donuts, remade gaskets, 3d printed indicator clips and trim... The list is endless.
I've had electronics totally refurbished by a specialist company; I have a 2003 VW Phaeton which had a commonly encountered problem in that the ABS controller had knackered internals. It's a unit which is bolted to the ABS pump in the engine bay. The engine heat eventually knackers the electronics and when it goes it screws up everything on the car which relies on a speed input to operate.....even including the spoiler on the sunroof which moves according to vehicle speed. I sent it to a company which specialises in repairing aumotive electronics, somewhere in Central London, as I recall. Came back fixed in about a week. They do all sorts of auto electronics and will even refurbish modern electronic instruments.
Just about everything is fixable by someone, somewhere.
Just about everything is fixable by someone, somewhere.
Dastardly Dick said:
Youre also seeing this issue with much of the consumer electronics on the market today, its all built to last a certain time and then fails to be thrown out and replaced.
Look at the average TV from say 20 years ago, most all were crt with accessible and repairable electronics, compared to the latest 4k flat screen theres virtually nothing you can do with such stuff unless youre very au fait with it or an absolute brainbox.
Cars are definitely going the same way with the CAN system and its modules and most of them arent repairable as theyre sealed and potted especially where theyre subjected to moisture on the outside of the vehicle.
Id be tempted to think its a deliberate ploy to get you to replace your vehicle every ten years just because of simple part failure that writes the vehicle off.
The only way around it is to go buy some spares that may not be available in a few years to keep you going.
Think Ill stick to my pre 2000 stuff if its all the same.
I agree with this. Also on most prestige cars say post 2000 you are dealing with a minefield with regards to vehicle build configuration and individual spec. Modules can be totally different on what would appear to be similar vehicles but they won't be compatible without coding / firmware etc. Wiring looms can have the smallest of differences in them. I know people can get around this sometimes but for most folk it doesn't make economic sense and can be a very frustrating experience! You can throw a lot of money at say a 2005 BMW E60 with no guaranteed outcome it will ever function properly again. For EG on a 2005 E60 if the sidelight bulb fails and isn't replaced after so many ignition cycles the module shuts down so even if you do replace the bulb it won't work again unless replaced, coded or you get onto the module to replace some values to force it to function again. I've done a few but it is a real pain!Look at the average TV from say 20 years ago, most all were crt with accessible and repairable electronics, compared to the latest 4k flat screen theres virtually nothing you can do with such stuff unless youre very au fait with it or an absolute brainbox.
Cars are definitely going the same way with the CAN system and its modules and most of them arent repairable as theyre sealed and potted especially where theyre subjected to moisture on the outside of the vehicle.
Id be tempted to think its a deliberate ploy to get you to replace your vehicle every ten years just because of simple part failure that writes the vehicle off.
The only way around it is to go buy some spares that may not be available in a few years to keep you going.
Think Ill stick to my pre 2000 stuff if its all the same.
When I was an apprentice for a large German materials handling company they used to buy up any old equipment and immediately put it in the skip. This was stuff from the 50's and 60's that still worked and was built so well. They wanted it out of circulation to get people to buy new equipment that probably wouldn't last 20 years.
This is something that concerns me on the cerbera.. There are many individual electronic control boxes for everything. They won't last forever..
We don't seem to value electronic engineering any more as everything is throw away.. (remember the time when a "TV repair man" was a thing? Will anyone be left to service these things in 10 years time?
We don't seem to value electronic engineering any more as everything is throw away.. (remember the time when a "TV repair man" was a thing? Will anyone be left to service these things in 10 years time?
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