Road feedback. Electric power steering.

[Paj1]

I wonder if anyone has any car recommendations that fit my bill?

Having driven older cars up until recently with hydraulic power steering and great road feedback through the steering wheel, it came as a bit of a shock when I bought more recent cars such as a 2016 Qashqai and a 2014 Civic, which I assume have electric power steering, that it is like driving on ice as there’s little to no feedback through the steering wheel. Always hoping when you turn the steering wheel that the car goes in the right direction. Cars have been checked out mechanically and both had brand new premium tyres.

What I’m after is a family car, 5 seats, around 2016 or newer, big boot, but most importantly, must have good road feedback. Are there any modern cars which fit the bill?

Thanks in advance.

[anonymous-user]

Paj1 said:

I wonder if anyone has any car recommendations that fit my bill?

Having driven older cars up until recently with hydraulic power steering and great road feedback through the steering wheel, it came as a bit of a shock when I bought more recent cars such as a 2016 Qashqai and a 2014 Civic, which I assume have electric power steering, that it is like driving on ice as there’s little to no feedback through the steering wheel. Always hoping when you turn the steering wheel that the car goes in the right direction. Cars have been checked out mechanically and both had brand new premium tyres.

What I’m after is a family car, 5 seats, around 2016 or newer, big boot, but most importantly, must have good road feedback. Are there any modern cars which fit the bill?

Thanks in advance.

Not really going to find such a car, sorry!

Yes, modern cars have ePAS, but this is not (particularly) the problem, it's more that modern cars are heavy and have massive tyres and are engineered for low NVH and stability.

Check out cars with very good steering feedback and you'll find one thing in common, narrow tyres! Out side of a Lotus Elise, the best modern car i've driven for steering feedback is the BMW i3, because it has 155 section tyres!

[Paj1]

Thanks for the reply. Never saw this as an issue until recently, having started driving in the late 1980s. I guess new drivers don’t even realise there’s a difference, unless they drive an older car. Wouldn’t mind an Elise, but think the rest of the family may have an issue with that…..

[CDP]

Try driving with a 1960's/1970's power steering setup such as the Lockheed system used by Jaguar and BL. If you drove by fingertips they were OK but try holding the large, thin-rimmed wheel with a modern grip and you won't feel a thing.

[ZX10R NIN]

Paj1 said:

Thanks for the reply. Never saw this as an issue until recently, having started driving in the late 1980s. I guess new drivers don’t even realise there’s a difference, unless they drive an older car. Wouldn’t mind an Elise, but think the rest of the family may have an issue with that…..

Look at the Focus/Mondeo they're pretty much the class leaders in their respective classes obviously test drive them first.

[Paj1]

ZX10R NIN said:

Look at the Focus/Mondeo they're pretty much the class leaders in their respective classes obviously test drive them first.

Yes, I’ve had several of both in the past, but nothing newer than 2005. All were great handling cars but I guess newer versions not so?

[ZX10R NIN]

Paj1 said:

Yes, I’ve had several of both in the past, but nothing newer than 2005. All were great handling cars but I guess newer versions not so?

They still have good chassis but not as sweet as the first gen's.

[trevalvole]

My experience of electric power steering is similar to yours. With me it is not really the ability to tell what stones the road has been surfaced with that many talk about, but the consistent weighting-up when entering fast sweepers that tells me the car is gripping.

Cars that come with HPAS (other than Lotus and McLaren) are few and far between. Off the top of my head the following occur to me, but I suspect none meet your written and unwritten criteria:

MG3 - these had HPAS for a long time and may still do, but are probably too small. The older, larger, MG6 may have HPAS, but I suspect has other issues.

Some Mercedes W204 C Classes and CLCs (if not all) had HPAS - perhaps the pre-facelift W204s. I don't know what the W212 E class had, so it is perhaps worth investigating. Some C63 and E63s had HPAS, the W205 C63 I think up to when it was recently discontinued.

I'm pretty sure the Aston Martin Rapide would have had HPAS, as would various Maseratis such as the Gran Turismo, so I'm sure one of these would suit! Non-current versions of the Jaguar XF and XJ may do too.

Edited by trevalvole on Tuesday 4th January 10:48

Edited by trevalvole on Tuesday 4th January 10:51

[Paj1]

trevalvole said:

My experience of electric power steering is similar to yours. With me it is not really the ability to tell what stones the road has been surfaced with that many talk about, but the consistent weighting-up when entering fast sweepers that tells me the car is gripping.

Edited by trevalvole on Tuesday 4th January 10:48

Edited by trevalvole on Tuesday 4th January 10:51

Yes exactly. Doing 70mph on a long sweep on a motorway/dual carriageway quite scary…..I’ve thought about a Golf or Octavia, as even though ePAS, there seems to be a variable steering weight option, although probably artificial.

[Pica-Pica]

Paj1 said:

trevalvole said:

My experience of electric power steering is similar to yours. With me it is not really the ability to tell what stones the road has been surfaced with that many talk about, but the consistent weighting-up when entering fast sweepers that tells me the car is gripping.

Edited by trevalvole on Tuesday 4th January 10:48

Edited by trevalvole on Tuesday 4th January 10:51

Yes exactly. Doing 70mph on a long sweep on a motorway/dual carriageway quite scary…..I’ve thought about a Golf or Octavia, as even though ePAS, there seems to be a variable steering weight option, although probably artificial.

Many reports/test drives in the past have criticised variable steering.

[trevalvole]

Paj1 said:

Yes exactly. Doing 70mph on a long sweep on a motorway/dual carriageway quite scary…..I’ve thought about a Golf or Octavia, as even though ePAS, there seems to be a variable steering weight option, although probably artificial.

After further thought, I know that the Mk2 Fabia had hydraulic power steering with the pump driven on-demand by an electric motor, so it may be worth investigating the likes of the Fabia estate and the related Roomster, plus the Yeti to see what kind of PAS they have. You'd then have to do your homework on the various VAG engines as I've heard of timing-chain, coking-up and oil consumption issues with the TSI petrols and I don't recall that the 1.6TDI had a good reputation. The 2.0TDI may be the best engine, though I'm not sure about ULEZ compliance if that is important to you. Also, I'd avoid the DSG gearboxes, especially the dry-clutch 7 speeds that come with the smaller engines (I think the dividing line is around 1.8 litres).

There may be other VAG cars, perhaps SEATs, that have similar steering to the above.

Edited by trevalvole on Tuesday 4th January 13:06

[Paj1]

Thanks for the information. I’ll have a look at Skodas.

[HustleRussell]

Unfortunately this is the way it is now. In these efficiency and safety-focussed times, manufacturers can't ignore the benefits of ePAS.

However it is not all doom and gloom as not all ePAS is completely devoid of feel. You probably just need to drive some things and see what is good enough.

Skoda / VW not the last word in driver involvement or handling IME.

Ford, Mazda, BMW strike me as manufacturers who might care about this.

That said, I've driven my Dad's Alpina D5 quite a lot and I can't get on with the variable steering. It lacks feel at all speeds unfortunately and I find the way the weight and rate varies with speed quite disconcerting.

[samoht]

Paj1 said:

trevalvole said:

My experience of electric power steering is similar to yours. With me it is not really the ability to tell what stones the road has been surfaced with that many talk about, but the consistent weighting-up when entering fast sweepers that tells me the car is gripping.

Yes exactly. Doing 70mph on a long sweep on a motorway/dual carriageway quite scary…..

I *think* that wheel alignment can also affect how the steering loads up with lateral load. Your cars may be to OEM specs, but it's possible that someone somewhere could tweak it and generate more feel of the grip. I don't know how EPAS affects this though.

I'd also consider looking at hot hatches like a Golf GTi, cars like this are typically evaluated on handling so are developed to be a bit better in this regard. 2.0T engines are pretty fuel-efficient, so you're not losing much in exchange for potentially better feel.

[Gary C]

I remember when I got a 200SX, the power steering was bonkers light. But after some time, you get used to it and the feedback was still there just not at 'loud' maybe as in other cars.

So, it maybe that the feedback is there

That said, the electric steering in the MGF was hiding nothing, just crap steering

And in reply to above, adding more castor increases the self centering weight of the steering.

[defblade]

There's some feel in the steering with my Rapid - even Evo agrees. So it's not all hopeless.

What I do notice from time to time, and I've always laid at the ePAS's door, is a bit of stiction when making those tiny corrections on the motorway. It just feels like you've got to put a bit more effort in than you should as the wind etc moves you around, just a fraction of a second where it doesn't feel like it's responding... and then it does. It feels to me like the there's the tiniest delay between my putting pressure on, and whatever motor/servo is involved waking up and joining the effort.

It's not a deal breaker for me... I'll notice it for a mile or two, then forget about it for the next 100 miles

[LightningBlue]

My Mini Coupe has lots of feedback through the wheel, some won’t like it as it could be deemed a handful but it makes it fun. On the basis you want a family car maybe try a Clubman Cooper S

[Skyedriver]

LightningBlue said:

My Mini Coupe has lots of feedback through the wheel, some won’t like it as it could be deemed a handful but it makes it fun. On the basis you want a family car maybe try a Clubman Cooper S

Yes, my wifes Cooper Cab has ePAS I assume but if feels OK#I hate not having a good steering feel, love my Caterham for predictability, Lotus Excel almost as good. Had a Merc SL129, steering felt totally devoid of feedback but there was some wear I think.
A lot of TVR don't have PAS which makes them difficult to park in tight spaces but my experiences of PAS TVR are that it kills feedback and makes the steering feel "wooden". A number of owners are fitting an adapted Corsa set up which only assists to about 40mph or has a variable control you switch on when entering a car park etc.

[trevalvole]

Skyedriver said:

Had a Merc SL129, steering felt totally devoid of feedback but there was some wear I think.

I think R129s had recirculating ball steering, so that might explain it.

[MC Bodge]

ZX10R NIN said:

Look at the Focus/Mondeo they're pretty much the class leaders in their respective classes obviously test drive them first.

My Mk5 Mondeo steering is quite good. It initially felt a bit inconsistent, but after disabling the anti-drift, anti-wander features with Forscan software it was much better.