Autistic man living in a cell
Discussion
There has to be more to this story, I.e. complex needs and possibly violent towards staff/carers. Otherwise why would they keep him in there?
Yet all media outlets state mum wants him out of this?
Anyone know any further? I.e. fact? No endless PH hypothesis.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEOvx65MT_WP1A...
Yet all media outlets state mum wants him out of this?
Anyone know any further? I.e. fact? No endless PH hypothesis.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEOvx65MT_WP1A...
I worked 5:1 with a similar young guy. For that ratio to be justified chances are he will have violent outbursts. My guy once took the lid off a toilet and smashed it over one of our staff and then got on him and started biting the back of his head and neck we think the cause was that the staff member was wearing aftershave or that he changed his shoes to ones a different colour than what he normally wore there was no other detected disturbance in his routine. Our staff needed 20 stitches but did come back to work after 3 weeks off all for £8.25 an hour.
Edited by dabofoppo on Tuesday 4th January 03:21
My nephew is severely Autistic and is in a specialist home with similar ratios. It's not unusual.
He's not as severe as the man in the article but can become agitated and violent.
Also he's very strong, they keep them very active which helps keep them calmer.
Think he's late 20's now and hasn't lived at home for maybe 15 years.
God knows what it costs per week to house him there.
He's not as severe as the man in the article but can become agitated and violent.
Also he's very strong, they keep them very active which helps keep them calmer.
Think he's late 20's now and hasn't lived at home for maybe 15 years.
God knows what it costs per week to house him there.
Do you remember the young man who attacked and threw a random child over the 10th floor balcony at London's Tate Modern a year or so back. Well he was meant to be under the care of authorities but was allowed unsupervised time out and about. And well, he nearly murdered a young child.
Unfortunately some people are so mentally ill that they simply can not be left unsupervised or allowed out in public. Especially if they have violent histories such as the Autistic man in this article. A sad situation but the health and safety of the general public comes first.
Unfortunately some people are so mentally ill that they simply can not be left unsupervised or allowed out in public. Especially if they have violent histories such as the Autistic man in this article. A sad situation but the health and safety of the general public comes first.
My dad used to work with children like this, one of whom was capable of flipping over a sofa while people were sitting on it.
It makes me laugh when the adults I know who have recently been diagnosed with autistic spectrum disorders as adults start banging on about being "neurodiverse" as if it's an identity and are intensely critical of those who see it as a problem - they're perfectly high functioning people, they have no idea what it's like for the family and carers of people like the one in the article.
It makes me laugh when the adults I know who have recently been diagnosed with autistic spectrum disorders as adults start banging on about being "neurodiverse" as if it's an identity and are intensely critical of those who see it as a problem - they're perfectly high functioning people, they have no idea what it's like for the family and carers of people like the one in the article.
I don't think describing him as "autistic" is helpful - the article mentions "mental health" and "medication" - autism isn't a mental health condition and cannot be medicated for.
He obviously has some very complex needs and probably should be in a secure hospital, but I can't help but feel that complete isolation in something akin to a prison is not ideal and we as a society could do better by such people and their families.
Point of disclosure - my daughter has autism (although requires nowhere near the support of this man) so I am obviously seeing the story from a different, personal point of view compared to many.
He obviously has some very complex needs and probably should be in a secure hospital, but I can't help but feel that complete isolation in something akin to a prison is not ideal and we as a society could do better by such people and their families.
Point of disclosure - my daughter has autism (although requires nowhere near the support of this man) so I am obviously seeing the story from a different, personal point of view compared to many.
I know someone who works with similar kids - it sounds horrific. Whilst I feel it’s probably correct he’s there I don’t agree on those conditions - the accommodation should atleast be humane and comfortable. It’s sad to think there’s potentially no release option - or release him, he commits a violent crime soon after and then put into a normal jail.
coppernorks said:
dudleybloke said:
He's there for a reason.
Correct, would the mother prefer to run the daily risk of physical attack when sheserves her son the incorrect make of breakfast cereal ?
We need to keep dangerous people locked up.
When I was too young to remember, my parents bought a house from a couple who had a son with similar issues. The place had hammer dents in most of the downstairs windowsills. Apparently, although I have no memory, during the viewing, the lad tried to squash me behind a door. My ad was looking out of the window into the back garden and he came up behind and walloped him with a two-handed blow in the back. The old man is pretty robust and shrugged it off, but the kids was only twelve and it was pretty clear the parents were already unable to control him.
MrBogSmith said:
If people want better MH services then they need paying for.
Ask anyone who works in that area how poor it is.
A self-contained flat with a staff of 5 on hand when needed doesn't sound like poor MH services to me. As others have said this arrangement is likely due to danger to himself and others. Ask anyone who works in that area how poor it is.
Having worked as a mental health nurse for 17 yrs/ and in a secure learning disability setting on and off for the last 10 yrs this is actually something I'm well qualified to comment on.
1. We are not some 3rd world country - there are very strict policies and procedures which would cover keeping somebody in such a setting. Obviously I don't know this case but it sounds like he's being managed in Long Term Segregation (LTS) - similar, but not the same as seclusion.
Whether NHS or private hospital (think he's in NHS? I need to look at the article again), there will be an LTS policy as long as your arm laying out the procedures to safeguard this gentleman.
They will include daily reviews by his MDT/medical team, external reviews from professionals within the organisation (but not involved in his care) as well as external reviews by professionals from other organisations/Trusts (the external reviews maybe monthly/3 monthly- depends on their policy). He possibly gets a visit from somebody representing the CCG funding his care on a regular basis too. He's detained under the Mental Health Act so would have a tribunal when his section gets renewed, at the very least, plus access to advocacy services.
Basically, if there was any hint of poor care/mis-treatment the local authority safeguarding team and/or the CQC would be all over them.
2. I currently nurse someone who's been in LTS for 8 months since he came to us, and on and off for the last 6 years before arriving with us.
LTS is not initiated lightly, and is a pain in the arse to manage in terms of staffing and the procedures you have to follow. Our chap is on 3-1 if we open the door and has a significant history of harming staff. He will also swallow pretty much anything he can get his hands on - plastic cutlery, batteries, tooth brush - you name it, he eats it, given the chance.
Looking at the chap in the article, he has access to quite a bit, and a decent living area so I'd say his conditions are much less restrictive than my patient.
3. As mentioned by a few people on this thread, the man in the article would clearly have complex needs = a learning disability, poor mental health, a significant risk profile. Many of the patients I work with have all of these, have been with us 5-10 years, sometimes more. You get a few success stories but treatment can be a proper long haul and it often gets to a point where they need a change/another service or hospital to have a go at looking after them and seeing if they can make progress - but such services are really scare. Hence people like the chap in the article just being stuck, year after year.
4. I do feel for individuals who get stuck in such places, whether in LTS or hospital generally. I probably feel for the family even more, and speaking to relatives on a regular basis I'm glad that most appreciate the work we do and understand the decisions the professionals make - to discharge/not discharge/give medication/manage in LTS etc etc.
1. We are not some 3rd world country - there are very strict policies and procedures which would cover keeping somebody in such a setting. Obviously I don't know this case but it sounds like he's being managed in Long Term Segregation (LTS) - similar, but not the same as seclusion.
Whether NHS or private hospital (think he's in NHS? I need to look at the article again), there will be an LTS policy as long as your arm laying out the procedures to safeguard this gentleman.
They will include daily reviews by his MDT/medical team, external reviews from professionals within the organisation (but not involved in his care) as well as external reviews by professionals from other organisations/Trusts (the external reviews maybe monthly/3 monthly- depends on their policy). He possibly gets a visit from somebody representing the CCG funding his care on a regular basis too. He's detained under the Mental Health Act so would have a tribunal when his section gets renewed, at the very least, plus access to advocacy services.
Basically, if there was any hint of poor care/mis-treatment the local authority safeguarding team and/or the CQC would be all over them.
2. I currently nurse someone who's been in LTS for 8 months since he came to us, and on and off for the last 6 years before arriving with us.
LTS is not initiated lightly, and is a pain in the arse to manage in terms of staffing and the procedures you have to follow. Our chap is on 3-1 if we open the door and has a significant history of harming staff. He will also swallow pretty much anything he can get his hands on - plastic cutlery, batteries, tooth brush - you name it, he eats it, given the chance.
Looking at the chap in the article, he has access to quite a bit, and a decent living area so I'd say his conditions are much less restrictive than my patient.
3. As mentioned by a few people on this thread, the man in the article would clearly have complex needs = a learning disability, poor mental health, a significant risk profile. Many of the patients I work with have all of these, have been with us 5-10 years, sometimes more. You get a few success stories but treatment can be a proper long haul and it often gets to a point where they need a change/another service or hospital to have a go at looking after them and seeing if they can make progress - but such services are really scare. Hence people like the chap in the article just being stuck, year after year.
4. I do feel for individuals who get stuck in such places, whether in LTS or hospital generally. I probably feel for the family even more, and speaking to relatives on a regular basis I'm glad that most appreciate the work we do and understand the decisions the professionals make - to discharge/not discharge/give medication/manage in LTS etc etc.
andy118run said:
Having worked as a mental health nurse for 17 yrs/ and in a secure learning disability setting on and off for the last 10 yrs this is actually something I'm well qualified to comment on.
1. We are not some 3rd world country - there are very strict policies and procedures which would cover keeping somebody in such a setting. Obviously I don't know this case but it sounds like he's being managed in Long Term Segregation (LTS) - similar, but not the same as seclusion.
Whether NHS or private hospital (think he's in NHS? I need to look at the article again), there will be an LTS policy as long as your arm laying out the procedures to safeguard this gentleman.
They will include daily reviews by his MDT/medical team, external reviews from professionals within the organisation (but not involved in his care) as well as external reviews by professionals from other organisations/Trusts (the external reviews maybe monthly/3 monthly- depends on their policy). He possibly gets a visit from somebody representing the CCG funding his care on a regular basis too. He's detained under the Mental Health Act so would have a tribunal when his section gets renewed, at the very least, plus access to advocacy services.
Basically, if there was any hint of poor care/mis-treatment the local authority safeguarding team and/or the CQC would be all over them.
2. I currently nurse someone who's been in LTS for 8 months since he came to us, and on and off for the last 6 years before arriving with us.
LTS is not initiated lightly, and is a pain in the arse to manage in terms of staffing and the procedures you have to follow. Our chap is on 3-1 if we open the door and has a significant history of harming staff. He will also swallow pretty much anything he can get his hands on - plastic cutlery, batteries, tooth brush - you name it, he eats it, given the chance.
Looking at the chap in the article, he has access to quite a bit, and a decent living area so I'd say his conditions are much less restrictive than my patient.
3. As mentioned by a few people on this thread, the man in the article would clearly have complex needs = a learning disability, poor mental health, a significant risk profile. Many of the patients I work with have all of these, have been with us 5-10 years, sometimes more. You get a few success stories but treatment can be a proper long haul and it often gets to a point where they need a change/another service or hospital to have a go at looking after them and seeing if they can make progress - but such services are really scare. Hence people like the chap in the article just being stuck, year after year.
4. I do feel for individuals who get stuck in such places, whether in LTS or hospital generally. I probably feel for the family even more, and speaking to relatives on a regular basis I'm glad that most appreciate the work we do and understand the decisions the professionals make - to discharge/not discharge/give medication/manage in LTS etc etc.
Apart from the nursing safeguards there are also legal and procedural safeguards1. We are not some 3rd world country - there are very strict policies and procedures which would cover keeping somebody in such a setting. Obviously I don't know this case but it sounds like he's being managed in Long Term Segregation (LTS) - similar, but not the same as seclusion.
Whether NHS or private hospital (think he's in NHS? I need to look at the article again), there will be an LTS policy as long as your arm laying out the procedures to safeguard this gentleman.
They will include daily reviews by his MDT/medical team, external reviews from professionals within the organisation (but not involved in his care) as well as external reviews by professionals from other organisations/Trusts (the external reviews maybe monthly/3 monthly- depends on their policy). He possibly gets a visit from somebody representing the CCG funding his care on a regular basis too. He's detained under the Mental Health Act so would have a tribunal when his section gets renewed, at the very least, plus access to advocacy services.
Basically, if there was any hint of poor care/mis-treatment the local authority safeguarding team and/or the CQC would be all over them.
2. I currently nurse someone who's been in LTS for 8 months since he came to us, and on and off for the last 6 years before arriving with us.
LTS is not initiated lightly, and is a pain in the arse to manage in terms of staffing and the procedures you have to follow. Our chap is on 3-1 if we open the door and has a significant history of harming staff. He will also swallow pretty much anything he can get his hands on - plastic cutlery, batteries, tooth brush - you name it, he eats it, given the chance.
Looking at the chap in the article, he has access to quite a bit, and a decent living area so I'd say his conditions are much less restrictive than my patient.
3. As mentioned by a few people on this thread, the man in the article would clearly have complex needs = a learning disability, poor mental health, a significant risk profile. Many of the patients I work with have all of these, have been with us 5-10 years, sometimes more. You get a few success stories but treatment can be a proper long haul and it often gets to a point where they need a change/another service or hospital to have a go at looking after them and seeing if they can make progress - but such services are really scare. Hence people like the chap in the article just being stuck, year after year.
4. I do feel for individuals who get stuck in such places, whether in LTS or hospital generally. I probably feel for the family even more, and speaking to relatives on a regular basis I'm glad that most appreciate the work we do and understand the decisions the professionals make - to discharge/not discharge/give medication/manage in LTS etc etc.
Review of detention by tribunal.
Plus an NHS body is commissioning the care - will be under regular review.
Nearest relative has right to request discharge which would be barred by the clinician in charge due to 'dangerousness' but this would be subject to a hearing.
oddman said:
Apart from the nursing safeguards there are also legal and procedural safeguards
Review of detention by tribunal.
Plus an NHS body is commissioning the care - will be under regular review.
Nearest relative has right to request discharge which would be barred by the clinician in charge due to 'dangerousness' but this would be subject to a hearing.
All of those safeguards were mentioned in my post I believe.Review of detention by tribunal.
Plus an NHS body is commissioning the care - will be under regular review.
Nearest relative has right to request discharge which would be barred by the clinician in charge due to 'dangerousness' but this would be subject to a hearing.
But probably too long to read...
Radio 4 recently covered a similar case - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59733934
He was placed in a short term care unit in 2001 and is still there..
The patient was declared fit for discharge in 2013, but is still waiting for a suitable home so he can be released.
Several other examples on the BBC website - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-35682556
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50252079
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59225870
I'm well aware that not every patient is suitable for release - my sister started her nursing career at Severalls hospital in Colchester, working with some of their most challenging patients and the tales she told of some were horrendous - but some of the cases like the ones above do tend to suggest some major failings in the care system.
He was placed in a short term care unit in 2001 and is still there..
The patient was declared fit for discharge in 2013, but is still waiting for a suitable home so he can be released.
Several other examples on the BBC website - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-35682556
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50252079
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59225870
I'm well aware that not every patient is suitable for release - my sister started her nursing career at Severalls hospital in Colchester, working with some of their most challenging patients and the tales she told of some were horrendous - but some of the cases like the ones above do tend to suggest some major failings in the care system.
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