Morals - Selling a car, hiding an issue, would you?

[thetapeworm]

I like to think I'm as honest as they come with car sales, the last one I sold (20 years old with 180k on the clock) was advertised with every known issue listed, a mass of pictures, a video walk around and I delivered it to the buyer 100 miles away for free, I'm a nice bloke. I've always tried to do this in the past and aside from one where the new buyer found stuff I had no idea about it's kept me free of drama.

But if, for example, you had a "white goods" diesel car with under 50k on the clock that's worth under £10k, with an issue that doesn't affect the way the car drives or safety (other than emissions) that could cost £1000s to fix would you consider paying a few hundred quid to have it "programmed out"? (the modern dash bulb removal to hide a problem I guess).

I'm writing this as someone who wouldn't do the above, with a car at a main dealer and already £288 down for "diagnostics" and lots more expense to come but people I've chatted to about it say I'm an idiot. Am I? (I am for buying this car, that much I know but that's an aside).

I would hate to think the next buyer might get into trouble at an MOT or be driving around in a car that's spewing out evil gasses, am I alone in worrying about the next phase in ownership of a generic metal box?

Maybe I should try and sell it with the faults in place but the countdown to the engine being disabled from starting (a kind of ransom I guess) could be a little off-putting

Edited by thetapeworm on Friday 7th January 09:55

[magpie215]

Suppose you could reverse the issue.


How would you feel if you had bought a car with a known expensive issue that had been hidden?

[Wills2]

No you're not an idiot just honest and that's a good thing, I wonder what your friends would say if you sold the car to them and hid the issues?

[anonymous-user]

I assume this is some sort of issue with Ad Blue on a VAG car? Personally my conscience would not allow me to sell that to someone, I couldn't be bothered with the risk of them knocking on my door later on when they discover the issue.

I think in this instance this is what WeBuyAnyCar is for? At least that way it is their problem and not yours anymore?

My current shed has a leaky injector which causes some smoke at start up but it runs absolutely fine. I couldn't even sell that to someone knowing the issue and knowing the sort of mouth breathers that buy sheds (aside from the people on the shed thread) who have the expectations of a new car for £1K.

[thetapeworm]

magpie215 said:

Suppose you could reverse the issue.


How would you feel if you had bought a car with a known expensive issue that had been hidden?

Exactly my stance on this, you'd been somewhat miffed but you couldn't even be angry and the garage selling it to you as they wouldn't know so you'd be onto the previous owner on the V5C and potentially reporting them or trying to take legal action. I don't know how far you'd get with this but you could end up having the new owner at your door.

I know it's illegal to drive a car with the DPF removed (but not illegal to remove a DPF), that's not the issue in this case but I presume the same applies to essentially switching off and hiding the AdBlue and EOLYS systems from the car... which could end up causing the DPF to fail early?

Like I said in the initial post I'm doing the right thing but it seems many others don't. It's not quite the epic Rolls Royce with the mileage blocker on it that was posted about on here but for those of us at the lower end of the market the impact can feel just as bad.

It's not even like you can do anything to check for it when buying a car unless you have diagnostics equipment to plug in and check things, it's opened my eyes to car buying anyway.

Edited by thetapeworm on Friday 7th January 10:56

[RemarkLima]

I'd echo the rest of the comments, I always sell cars with a note of everything! If it's something to get gone, then WBAC / all the others will then take the risk, or a PX... However we know a chunk of dealers will happily sell onwards with known faults (not all of them obviously).

However, by the same token, I know most people aren't that honest and hence when buying I'll assume the worst, and that faults and issues have been masked or patched - or there's a big bill known to be imminent but not mentioned. That doesn't make one a idiot as the only way to prevent this is to buy new, or maybe approved used and pay the premium which isn't always an option.

Cars just cost money, but most people seem to think they should run for free for some reason.

Out of curiosity, what's the issue? Would a keen DIY'er be able to fix?

[M.F.D]

You're an idiot if you paid £288 for a diagnostic plug in.

I am always honest with a private sale, I would absolutely be up front about this to a prospective buyer. However, would I hide it from main dealer/AC/WBAC etc? Yeah, probably and I think many people would be the same even if they wouldn't admit it.

[joropug]

I usually fix issues before selling but when I was younger I sold 2 cars with clutches on their way out. The first one, I sold the car cheaper - my logic in my head is that add the cost of a clutch and it was still a good price at the time.

The second was slipping due to the torque of a Remap - I removed the remap before selling it and the buyer absolutely abused it on the test drive so had zero comeback.

The only issue I have hidden like that was an EGR fault, cured by deactivating it and remapping the car - it drove so much better for it. It wasn't blanked just deactivated so it would never have failed an MOT and was the done thing on that model of car.

On the flip side, I have bought a car with a faulty synchromesh (albeit knowingly, the previous owner claimed it had no issues and then phoned me back an hour later saying "I've just tested it actually and it does crunch a bit". Also bought countless cars with lots of maintenance due or overdue such as brake discs and pads, suspension parts, tyres etc which add up to a lot of money shortly after purchase.

[anonymous-user]

Just to add, there is a dodgy bombsite car dealer near me and if I am bored on a Saturday afternoon I occasionally go along to have a look at what they have. They often have BMWs and Mercedes in the £5K range and you just know the previous owner got shot because something very expensive was about to go wrong.

I had a look at a 1 Series 4 cylinder petrol they had, it just didn't start cleanly and was struggling to maintain idle. A Mercedes W204 C180 you could hear the timing chain rattle for the first ten seconds after start up.

A 1 Series diesel they were working on was struggling to start and when it did the engine was shaking so much it was trying to leave the engine bay and clouds of smoke came out of it.

As you can imagine, the reviews on Google are not exactly glowing for this place... Like you it has certainly opened my eyes to second hand cars and the potential issues and reason the previous owner got shot.

And it is not just dealers, I have had numerous problems buying cars privately that could not have been spotted.

1)An Audi A4 Convertible 1.8T that used stupid amounts of oil
2)A Ford Cougar shed with an occasional misfire that turned out to be a dead lambda sensor
3)A BMW 318 E46 with a coolant leak. The previous owner knew as the heater was on full (to bleed the system) when I got in but I didn't twig until later

All of these people knew these issues and just wanted to make it someone else's problem.

[thetapeworm]

RemarkLima said:

Out of curiosity, what's the issue? Would a keen DIY'er be able to fix?

I consider myself a keen DIY'er, mainly nuts and bolts though, but have already pulled codes etc with my limited bits and pieces. It's likely to be something like the EOLYS injector, AdBlue pump or injector that's failed / stuck and this is bolted to the tank, they don't sell the parts individually so you end up having to replace the lot and then have it plugged in again to tell the car it's been done - £1000+, seemingly common issue, reeks of a design fault that should be recalled but no joy. It could be the NoX sensor that's failed... essentially it could be all kinds of things.

It's a Citroen / Peugeot 1.6 BlueHDi lump - it had similar issues a few years back when the EOLYS injector got stuck, a local diagnostics place sorted it for £200 and then again a year on when it came back as they said it might. This time the warnings and codes are different and accompanied by a countdown that stops you being able to start the car after so many miles but the problem seems to be in the same area as before.

Rather than continue to give £100s to the local place I thought a one off £144 to the main dealer would get me a proper summary of the underlying issue. Sadly it turns out that £144 was for 1 hour of initial checks with the car cold and now they want another £144 with it up to temp because that's what the Tech Bulletin the mechanic has found says (they also tried to get me to approve £650 of other unnecessary work but that's an aside).

M.F.D said:

You're an idiot if you paid £288 for a diagnostic plug in

See above but I agree, I was uncomfortable with the £144 initially quoted and am now angry at the extra £144 but am essentially being held to ransom as they have the car, it's counting down to being disabled, they're supposed to be the experts and... as in some cases... might offer some goodwill towards replacing the ridiculous part that's failed. I naively thoughts £144 would get me to a diagnosis and a quote for it fixing.

The alternative was to use my local place, who are great and like to fix things rather than replace entire cars, and then keep bodging it along or for them to source the parts and it still needing the Citroen kit to tell the car it's been sorted. Having spent 100s with them already on this I thought it was time to stop spending more to try and save and just bite the bullet.

Unfortunately it's probably now a case of us not selling the car, taking the hit on this and living with it for a few more years, it might mean I can fix some issues on my Saab instead I guess

[georgeyboy12345]

Joey Deacon said:

Personally my conscience would not allow me to sell that to someone, I couldn't be bothered with the risk of them knocking on my door later on when they discover the issue.

I think in this instance this is what WeBuyAnyCar is for? At least that way it is their problem and not yours anymore?

This is pretty much what I came here to post. Do this

[thetapeworm]

georgeyboy12345 said:

Joey Deacon said:

Personally my conscience would not allow me to sell that to someone, I couldn't be bothered with the risk of them knocking on my door later on when they discover the issue.

I think in this instance this is what WeBuyAnyCar is for? At least that way it is their problem and not yours anymore?

This is pretty much what I came here to post. Do this

Oh I've checked, they offered £1000 less than the garage we bought the car from (who have been chasing us a fair bit to try and buy it back) - both obviously oblivious to the fault it has currently.

I presume both would adjust prices dramatically.

The issue is my wife can't decide what she wants to replace it with anyway and now she's on the path of "better the devil you know" and thinking of keeping it.

My attempts to add some fun to the driveway with a hot hatch are met with rolled eyes.

Edited by thetapeworm on Friday 7th January 10:31

[samoht]

thetapeworm said:

But if, for example, you had a "white goods" diesel car with under 50k on the clock that's worth under £10k, with an issue that doesn't affect the way the car drives or safety (other than emissions) that could cost £1000s to fix would you consider paying a few hundred quid to have it "programmed out"? (the modern dash bulb removal to hide a problem I guess).

This thread seems to have set up a bit of a false dichotomy between (a) paying to fix the car properly and (b) disabling the failed Adblue? injection system and selling the car on without telling the next owner.

If the car can drive perfectly well without the failed system, yes I'd just get it coded out. You've already forked out once to repair it, it's clearly not fit for purpose so be done with it.

Having done so you could keep the car, however at the point of sale, if I was selling privately then yes I would tell the prospective buyer of the change. That way I'm being open and they can decide if they're happy with that - some ppl may prefer a car with this fault 'resolved' permanently to one that could land them in the same position you're in now.

If I was trading in or WBAC or whatever I probably wouldn't say anything, it's for them to inspect the car as experts and decide if they want it. But haven't done this much, might depend on the precise situation.

[thetapeworm]

The garage just called me, £1995 to fix the car.

I have to be honest, my morals are diminishing a little.

[AceKid]

As has been echoed above....If I was selling privately, then I would ensure everything was correct and nothing hidden.
However, I recently had a a very bad experience with a Mk7 fiesta ST, after much investigation etc, it was established it probably had a cracked block and required a new engine...(was looking at around £3k), but if it was driven lightly from garage to local WBAC then it was fine (just as an example given to me by the garage!)

So morals out the window and I took the least financially bad decision and sold it to them, still lost money, but would have been worse otherwise.

[edusa]

thetapeworm said:

I like to think I'm as honest as they come with car sales, the last one I sold (20 years old with 180k on the clock) was advertised with every known issue listed, a mass of pictures, a video walk around and I delivered it to the buyer 100 miles away for free, I'm a nice bloke. I've always tried to do this in the past and aside from one where the new buyer found stuff I had no idea about it's kept me free of drama.

But if, for example, you had a "white goods" diesel car with under 50k on the clock that's worth under £10k, with an issue that doesn't affect the way the car drives or safety (other than emissions) that could cost £1000s to fix would you consider paying a few hundred quid to have it "programmed out"? (the modern dash bulb removal to hide a problem I guess).

I'm writing this as someone who wouldn't do the above, with a car at a main dealer and already £288 down for "diagnostics" and lots more expense to come but people I've chatted to about it say I'm an idiot. Am I? (I am for buying this car, that much I know but that's an aside).

I would hate to think the next buyer might get into trouble at an MOT or be driving around in a car that's spewing out evil gasses, am I alone in worrying about the next phase in ownership of a generic metal box?

Maybe I should try and sell it with the faults in place but the countdown to the engine being disabled from starting (a kind of ransom I guess) could be a little off-putting

Edited by thetapeworm on Friday 7th January 09:55

Sell it sold as seen and no refunds limit info to basic and obvious stuff.