Neighbour threat of court action
Discussion
Looking for some views on an issue that's bubbled up with my neighbour.
I moved into this house in late 2019. About a month after I had a chat with one of my neighbours over the 6ft fence (he was standing on a bench). Basically 10 seconds of pleasantaries followed by "I fell out with the guy who used to own that house" and "I'd just set fire to the garden and start again". We talked in particular about a couple of really tall Sitka Spruce trees that are on my property but close to his. We discussed briefly taking them down and I said I'd look into it when I had time - then came COVID so I had other priorities for a while.
October 2020 I got a couple of tree surgeons round who quoted and said they would need confirmation that there was no preservation or planning consent orders on the trees, plus they wouldn't fell the trees until the ground was dry.
Since then I've been chasing the council on a regular basis on the preservation order and planning consent issues. There is no preservation order - however for planning consent they need to access physical files and (as they say) they are all working from home due to COVID so can't gain access.Their **opinion** is that any planning stipulations relating to the trees will now have lapsed given the houses were built in the late 80s - but will need to see the original paperwork.
My title deeds say something to the effect of existing trees shall not be cut down, pruned or damaged without prior written consent.
During this I've exchanged a handful of texts with my neighbour keeping him up to date but all very informal.
Yesterday I received a legal letter stating that the trees should be felled immediately or I'd be liable for the "damage" caused by the pine needles falling onto my neighbours house (bear in mind his house is surrounded on 3 sides by trees), and if we proceed immediately he's willing to share costs.
I've always been happy to get the trees down, they are a big blot on the garden. I'm not happy with the bully boy tactics though and I'm concerned about just ploughing ahead whilst the "legal" position on bringing down the trees is a little loose.
Thanks for reading.
Would appreciate some views!!
I moved into this house in late 2019. About a month after I had a chat with one of my neighbours over the 6ft fence (he was standing on a bench). Basically 10 seconds of pleasantaries followed by "I fell out with the guy who used to own that house" and "I'd just set fire to the garden and start again". We talked in particular about a couple of really tall Sitka Spruce trees that are on my property but close to his. We discussed briefly taking them down and I said I'd look into it when I had time - then came COVID so I had other priorities for a while.
October 2020 I got a couple of tree surgeons round who quoted and said they would need confirmation that there was no preservation or planning consent orders on the trees, plus they wouldn't fell the trees until the ground was dry.
Since then I've been chasing the council on a regular basis on the preservation order and planning consent issues. There is no preservation order - however for planning consent they need to access physical files and (as they say) they are all working from home due to COVID so can't gain access.Their **opinion** is that any planning stipulations relating to the trees will now have lapsed given the houses were built in the late 80s - but will need to see the original paperwork.
My title deeds say something to the effect of existing trees shall not be cut down, pruned or damaged without prior written consent.
During this I've exchanged a handful of texts with my neighbour keeping him up to date but all very informal.
Yesterday I received a legal letter stating that the trees should be felled immediately or I'd be liable for the "damage" caused by the pine needles falling onto my neighbours house (bear in mind his house is surrounded on 3 sides by trees), and if we proceed immediately he's willing to share costs.
I've always been happy to get the trees down, they are a big blot on the garden. I'm not happy with the bully boy tactics though and I'm concerned about just ploughing ahead whilst the "legal" position on bringing down the trees is a little loose.
Thanks for reading.
Would appreciate some views!!
Write back politely explaining that you are in the process of dealing with the trees and to that end liaising with the council over them but the council is slow in responding due to covid; that you are puzzled at the factual claim that pine needles can damage a house and would require some further explanation of the mechanics and extent of this “damage”; that you would like to know what legal precedent or principle he relies on to say that “damage” caused by the natural process of a tree shedding needles is your legal liability; and that if he commences legal proceedings (a) it will be at his risk as to costs and (b) as your decision making and timing is impacted by the council you will add the council as a third party, seek an indemnity from it, and he will end up suing the council.
The short version: he’s a dick, trying it on.
The short version: he’s a dick, trying it on.
I'd be telling him to f*** off, he fell out with the previous as it sounds like he wasn't getting what he wanted and now thinks he can start on you. Nip it in the bud.
I have one neighbour who moved in 2 years after we moved in (and had the 2 trees in the front garden crowned and pruned twice in that time, with any branches overhanging to his property cut right back) There was a big fir tree hedge between the 2 front gardens but on his side and they ripped them out the day after they moved in.
The following autumn when the trees shed their leaves (and I collected them when I had chance) but it had been windy and a load blew on to the front of his property (all greenery ripped out and driveway instead)
He came round ringing the door bell and banging on the door, all confrontational when I answered the door and "I want them trees down!" blah blah "they'll be damaging my drive!" with a lot of swearing and demands.
Told him to calm down, explained that they had been pruned twice already etc, if they were damaging his drive then he would have noticed any problem roots when he was having the driveway done, if any branches were overhanging I would get the tree surgeon to cut them back next time he comes to prune them. But in the end they were here before we moved in, they were here before you moved in. This is a rural area and we like greenery, you chose to rip all your side out and pave it.
Non of this seemed to placate him, so I said, look fella, you ripped the hedge out, that used to stop a load of the leaves, we liked the hedge and will be replacing it on our side at some point, previous neighbour had never mentioned any issue, it's been windy so loads have come down, I haven't had a chance to get the garden vac out yet.
He was still wound up and not calming down.
"OK, I'll count to 3 and get off my property" still shouty and swearing.
Punch to the face and manhandled him off my property, come on to my property again and it wont go well for you.
Stupid little builder hasn't so much as looked or spoke to me or my partner since.
Heard from other neighbours about him complaining and stuff but luckily one of them are friends of my parents and knew me from young and told him you don't want to be upsetting him.
I have one neighbour who moved in 2 years after we moved in (and had the 2 trees in the front garden crowned and pruned twice in that time, with any branches overhanging to his property cut right back) There was a big fir tree hedge between the 2 front gardens but on his side and they ripped them out the day after they moved in.
The following autumn when the trees shed their leaves (and I collected them when I had chance) but it had been windy and a load blew on to the front of his property (all greenery ripped out and driveway instead)
He came round ringing the door bell and banging on the door, all confrontational when I answered the door and "I want them trees down!" blah blah "they'll be damaging my drive!" with a lot of swearing and demands.
Told him to calm down, explained that they had been pruned twice already etc, if they were damaging his drive then he would have noticed any problem roots when he was having the driveway done, if any branches were overhanging I would get the tree surgeon to cut them back next time he comes to prune them. But in the end they were here before we moved in, they were here before you moved in. This is a rural area and we like greenery, you chose to rip all your side out and pave it.
Non of this seemed to placate him, so I said, look fella, you ripped the hedge out, that used to stop a load of the leaves, we liked the hedge and will be replacing it on our side at some point, previous neighbour had never mentioned any issue, it's been windy so loads have come down, I haven't had a chance to get the garden vac out yet.
He was still wound up and not calming down.
"OK, I'll count to 3 and get off my property" still shouty and swearing.
Punch to the face and manhandled him off my property, come on to my property again and it wont go well for you.
Stupid little builder hasn't so much as looked or spoke to me or my partner since.
Heard from other neighbours about him complaining and stuff but luckily one of them are friends of my parents and knew me from young and told him you don't want to be upsetting him.
How can you have a 'legal' letter asking you to do something that is possibly illegal?
Write back with a time line of everything that you have done regarding the legalities of cutting them down.
Emphasize the fact that you want the trees down just as much as him and are waiting on information from the council. Don't bother to get into a petty argument about pine needles but point out that if he can get the council to work any quicker then he is more than welcome to try.
Keep it simple, keep it accurate and don't get side-tracked.
Write back with a time line of everything that you have done regarding the legalities of cutting them down.
Emphasize the fact that you want the trees down just as much as him and are waiting on information from the council. Don't bother to get into a petty argument about pine needles but point out that if he can get the council to work any quicker then he is more than welcome to try.
Keep it simple, keep it accurate and don't get side-tracked.
Thanks everyone for taking the time to get back and your advice.
I'm no legal eagle but as far as I know planning consent essentially lays out the ground rules imposed by the council(?) when new buildings are put up. The person at the council I've spoken to about this has basically implied that planning consent granted back in the 80's especially in relation to trees which will grown signficantly in that time are probably not reasonably enforceable.This is in Scotland - not sure if different elsewhere in UK.
I'm not in a conservation area either.
When I say Legal Letter I basically mean a letter from a lawyer with legalise, fancy words and veiled threats.
I'm keen to get these trees down, can't be bothered with neighbourhood feuds and happy that my neighbour is willing to share costs.
Just don't want there to be comeback based on some dusty clause somewhere.
I'm no legal eagle but as far as I know planning consent essentially lays out the ground rules imposed by the council(?) when new buildings are put up. The person at the council I've spoken to about this has basically implied that planning consent granted back in the 80's especially in relation to trees which will grown signficantly in that time are probably not reasonably enforceable.This is in Scotland - not sure if different elsewhere in UK.
I'm not in a conservation area either.
When I say Legal Letter I basically mean a letter from a lawyer with legalise, fancy words and veiled threats.
I'm keen to get these trees down, can't be bothered with neighbourhood feuds and happy that my neighbour is willing to share costs.
Just don't want there to be comeback based on some dusty clause somewhere.
If you are thinking of removing them anyway I'd welcome his offer to pay half the cost, get the job done properly with the stumps ground etc. I'd write back to whoever sent the letter accepting the offer, including a quote for the work and asking for a payment towards this 7 days before the work commences which is subject to the outcome of your enquiries with the council.
You get what you want half price and he's happy and potentially incurred legal costs.
If on the other hand you decide to keep them, ignore him or tell him to FRO depending on your mood.
I did the latter with a local bully and he eventually moved when others followed my lead.
You get what you want half price and he's happy and potentially incurred legal costs.
If on the other hand you decide to keep them, ignore him or tell him to FRO depending on your mood.
I did the latter with a local bully and he eventually moved when others followed my lead.
Sounds like your neighbour has lost patience with you given it’s now been over 2 years since you spoke about it. A quick call to the Council’s Tree Officer could sort this out or just put a planning application (it’s free for tree work) in and get a decision from the Council.
I’d do it soonest given neighbour is willing to contribute otherwise you may get an enforcement notice and have to stump up the full costs.
I’d do it soonest given neighbour is willing to contribute otherwise you may get an enforcement notice and have to stump up the full costs.
21TonyK said:
If you are thinking of removing them anyway I'd welcome his offer to pay half the cost, get the job done properly with the stumps ground etc. I'd write back to whoever sent the letter accepting the offer, including a quote for the work and asking for a payment towards this 7 days before the work commences which is subject to the outcome of your enquiries with the council.
You get what you want half price and he's happy and potentially incurred legal costs.
If on the other hand you decide to keep them, ignore him or tell him to FRO depending on your mood.
I did the latter with a local bully and he eventually moved when others followed my lead.
This seems sensible!You get what you want half price and he's happy and potentially incurred legal costs.
If on the other hand you decide to keep them, ignore him or tell him to FRO depending on your mood.
I did the latter with a local bully and he eventually moved when others followed my lead.
Take the idiot’s cash towards something you wanted to do anyway?
If you ‘need to win’ as many do on here and in life, (ignoring the fact that you are ready winning by taking his cash
) then pretend to stand your ground initially but give him an easy out? You could initially refuse his demands but then offer to engage the tree surgeons immediately but they will in turn need to be indemnified against any claim on their PI from the council? Provided he agrees to that - make it conditional - then in the ‘spirit of good neighbourly relations,’, you will engage the surgeons immediately as you don’t want to fall out with your immediate neighbour etc.As above, get stumps removed, holes packed etc and rush off to the bank with the idiot’s cash.
[quote=ade73
"OK, I'll count to 3 and get off my property" still shouty and swearing.
Punch to the face and manhandled him off my property, come on to my property again and it wont go well for you.
Stupid little builder hasn't so much as looked or spoke to me or my partner since.
[/quote]
Whilst poor behaviour has consequences, I don't think an approach to property issues should be decided by whoever can hit someone in the face hard enough.
Were I to be punched by a neighbour (or in fact anyone) it would be reported to the police asap.
I have however managed to go 40 odd years without ever getting in such a situation and, as I said, poor behaviour has its consequences.
I think other advice about nipping this in the bud is good, but doing so via letter will leave a clearer trail than heated exchanges at the door step or over a fence.
I've never heard of shed needles creating a liability for the tree owner
"OK, I'll count to 3 and get off my property" still shouty and swearing.
Punch to the face and manhandled him off my property, come on to my property again and it wont go well for you.
Stupid little builder hasn't so much as looked or spoke to me or my partner since.
[/quote]
Whilst poor behaviour has consequences, I don't think an approach to property issues should be decided by whoever can hit someone in the face hard enough.
Were I to be punched by a neighbour (or in fact anyone) it would be reported to the police asap.
I have however managed to go 40 odd years without ever getting in such a situation and, as I said, poor behaviour has its consequences.
I think other advice about nipping this in the bud is good, but doing so via letter will leave a clearer trail than heated exchanges at the door step or over a fence.
I've never heard of shed needles creating a liability for the tree owner
Pretty sure you have no liability for any damage that might be caused to his house by needle drop or falling limbs unless you've grossly neglected the tree and ignored disease to the point it's obviously dying and unsafe; any damage caused is his problem and not yours. The council's excuse about needing to access physical files is not your problem either; if they cannot process such a simple application in the usual time(3 months IIRC) they're supposed to grant you permission by default so just bang in an application and then pester them if it's not granted within the time limit.
Ian Geary said:
Whilst poor behaviour has consequences, I don't think an approach to property issues should be decided by whoever can hit someone in the face hard enough.
Were I to be punched by a neighbour (or in fact anyone) it would be reported to the police asap.
I have however managed to go 40 odd years without ever getting in such a situation and, as I said, poor behaviour has its consequences.
I think other advice about nipping this in the bud is good, but doing so via letter will leave a clearer trail than heated exchanges at the door step or over a fence.
I've never heard of shed needles creating a liability for the tree owner
When some little shouty twerp comes to my door full of aggression and ranting, trying to lay down the law by swearing and shouting. If he doesn't calm down when asked and talk to normally then he can either go away and calm down and try again later or he is getting what comes after a warning. Were I to be punched by a neighbour (or in fact anyone) it would be reported to the police asap.
I have however managed to go 40 odd years without ever getting in such a situation and, as I said, poor behaviour has its consequences.
I think other advice about nipping this in the bud is good, but doing so via letter will leave a clearer trail than heated exchanges at the door step or over a fence.
I've never heard of shed needles creating a liability for the tree owner
ade73 said:
Ian Geary said:
Whilst poor behaviour has consequences, I don't think an approach to property issues should be decided by whoever can hit someone in the face hard enough.
Were I to be punched by a neighbour (or in fact anyone) it would be reported to the police asap.
I have however managed to go 40 odd years without ever getting in such a situation and, as I said, poor behaviour has its consequences.
I think other advice about nipping this in the bud is good, but doing so via letter will leave a clearer trail than heated exchanges at the door step or over a fence.
I've never heard of shed needles creating a liability for the tree owner
When some little shouty twerp comes to my door full of aggression and ranting, trying to lay down the law by swearing and shouting. If he doesn't calm down when asked and talk to normally then he can either go away and calm down and try again later or he is getting what comes after a warning. Were I to be punched by a neighbour (or in fact anyone) it would be reported to the police asap.
I have however managed to go 40 odd years without ever getting in such a situation and, as I said, poor behaviour has its consequences.
I think other advice about nipping this in the bud is good, but doing so via letter will leave a clearer trail than heated exchanges at the door step or over a fence.
I've never heard of shed needles creating a liability for the tree owner
If he's offering to share costs then great, take him up on it.
I've got a neighbours tree that sits 4 inches from my boundary and with the prevailing wind I'd say 90+% of it falls onto my garden.
It's really annoying although I haven't fallen out with them, or offered them any money, I do prune it right up to the boundary though, hoping they take the hint and remove it one day.
It grows atleast 6ft per year too.
I've got a neighbours tree that sits 4 inches from my boundary and with the prevailing wind I'd say 90+% of it falls onto my garden.
It's really annoying although I haven't fallen out with them, or offered them any money, I do prune it right up to the boundary though, hoping they take the hint and remove it one day.
It grows atleast 6ft per year too.
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