Westfield - 4 or 5 speed
Discussion
Hiya,
seen a pretty yellow Westfield for sale, but it has a 4 speed box, and it is a little like stirring mud with a stick. The guy has fitted a clever h gate on it, but I was wondering what were the pros and cons of a 4 speed v a 5 speed. I thought I would not consider a 4, but this one really has me interested.
Comments please!
seen a pretty yellow Westfield for sale, but it has a 4 speed box, and it is a little like stirring mud with a stick. The guy has fitted a clever h gate on it, but I was wondering what were the pros and cons of a 4 speed v a 5 speed. I thought I would not consider a 4, but this one really has me interested.
Comments please!
I'm suprised at the 'stirring mud with a stick' comment. Old Ford 4-speed boxes usually have a truly excellent gearchange...the proverbial 'rifle bolt' precision...and are generally better than the 5-speeders in this respect.
The extra gear can make a difference to motorway cruising. You can fit a tall diff ratio to bring the revs down at motorways speeds, but that will then blunt acceleration.
Depends on lots of factors, unfortunately...what you will use the car for, your driving style, the power band of the engine.
Personally, I'd be reluctant to buy a car with a 4 speed box unless the vast majority of my driving was on B-roads, or competion use for hillclimbs and sprints, but that's not to say that I'd rule it out altogether if the rest of the package is right.
The extra gear can make a difference to motorway cruising. You can fit a tall diff ratio to bring the revs down at motorways speeds, but that will then blunt acceleration.
Depends on lots of factors, unfortunately...what you will use the car for, your driving style, the power band of the engine.
Personally, I'd be reluctant to buy a car with a 4 speed box unless the vast majority of my driving was on B-roads, or competion use for hillclimbs and sprints, but that's not to say that I'd rule it out altogether if the rest of the package is right.
MR, thanks agian for your quick and informative response. I am looking for the car for a commute on mainly b roads (18 miles each way). There was no real centring on the box, which made me wonder where the stick was going. I am hoping to go back and get a test drive to see how I feel. It was an early SEIw...
If the gearbox is a problem it's very cheap to change them - good second hand 4 or 5 speed boxes are £30-£50 a pop and fitting them is a few hours work, bit more if clutch required too. Just make sure the chassis is straight and not rusty and there are no cracks in the fiberglass. Everything else is cheap to fix 
Fer said:
There was no real centring on the box, which made me wonder where the stick was going.
Ah, ok...that might be a little disconcerting if you have only been used to 5-speed boxes!
5 speed boxes have 3 planes of operation (1st/2nd-3rd/4th - 5th) so are usually spring-loaded to keep the gear lever in the centre plane (3rd/4th). That way you have to make a decisive effort to get 1st/2nd or 5th, to avoid confusion or the risk of accidentally selecting the wrong gear.
4 speed boxes don't need the lever to be spring loaded...left for 1st/2nd and right for 3rd/4th, nothing in the middle, so there is no chance of selecting the wrong gear!
Once you are familiar with the box, at worst it won't bother you any more, and more likely you will find that you actually prefer it..since you aren't having to apply pressure to overcome the spring-loading on the central plane, the changes feel quicker and slicker. A good 4-speed will feel a little 'loose', because there is nothing holding the gearlever in a particular position - it will just flop from side to side - but old Ford boxes in particular have a lovely, light, mechanical feel to the change.
A decent Ford 4 speed (especially one that has been sprinkled with magic dust by Brian Hill at BGH Geartech!) is a true joy!
busa_rush said:
If the gearbox is a problem it's very cheap to change them - good second hand 4 or 5 speed boxes are £30-£50 a pop and fitting them is a few hours work, bit more if clutch required too.
Information on interchangeability of Ford boxes is readily available, but I'd argue that it's not quite that straightforward.
Apart from finding the box, you will need to change the clutch driven plate (false economy not to change the cover, too, while you are at it), the gearbox mounting on the chassis will likely be in the wrong place (requiring minor welding mods to the chassis), you will need a new or modified and re-balanced propshaft and the gearlever will almost certainly sprout up through the transmission tunnel in a different position (so new panel will need making up, riveting on and trimming).
Oh..and depending on the current and proposed arrangement, you might find that you are changing from an inertia-type to a pre-engaged started motor, which requires not only the new starter motor, but a new ring gear on the flywheel (they engage from different sides of the flywheel, so the ring gear is chamfered the other way round)!
And £30 5-speeds are likely to be pretty ropey, so budget for an overhaul before you fit it (preferably by the aforementioned BGH Geartech).
Still, if busa_rush can sort the whole job in a few hours, I'm sure he'd be happy to do it for a fellow Pistonheader for the price of a few drinks!
Mutant Rat said:
Still, if busa_rush can sort the whole job in a few hours, I'm sure he'd be happy to do it for a fellow Pistonheader for the price of a few drinks!
I wasn't thinking of a conversion only taking that long, just replacing a worn box for another of the same kind
I agree that a cheap second hand box probably won't be great but it's a cheap fix to get the car running
Fer said:
Hmm, there were a few marks on the body, mainly cosmetic.
Remamber that the body is almost certainly a gelcoat finish...depending on the nature of the marks, you may need to grind out the damage and make a gelcoat repair, after which spraying the full panel may be the only way to get a decent paint match.
Make sure you negotiate the price accordingly!
Fer said:That'll match your cape you mentioned then
Hiya,
seen a pretty yellow Westfield for sale.....
The need for 5 gears just means you're driving on far too many straight roads
I'm not big on the pros and cons of 4 and 5 speeds, but the only annoyance I have with my 4 speed is that I have a short lever so take the skin off my knuckles on the lower dash bar when putting it into first and third.
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who replied on my threads whilst I was looking for advice.
The deed is done, I am now the proud owner (on paper at least) of a Yellow Westfield SEI, with only a tonneau cover, as my daily drive (once I MOT it, and sell the dome tent).
Expect to see me at VW some time, or one of the other get togethers.
Thanks again for all your help,
Fer
The deed is done, I am now the proud owner (on paper at least) of a Yellow Westfield SEI, with only a tonneau cover, as my daily drive (once I MOT it, and sell the dome tent).
Expect to see me at VW some time, or one of the other get togethers.
Thanks again for all your help,
Fer
Well done on the purchase.
You may well find that the 'problem' is actually down to the linkage, not the box. Our car has a 4 speed box and an early Westfield remote linkage on it. This has some play and no bias, but once you get the feel the changes are superb.
The remote was a bit of a heath-robinson thing. Short length of tube that slips over a cut-down normal stick, stud welded on the side of this tube, flat plate bolts to stud but allows movement, kind of same thing again at the actual stick end where there is a chunk of strip attached across the tunnel, the pivot for the stick is actually a clevis and a stud welded to the stip allows left-right stick movement. There is a reverse-lockout on it too, as the one in the box has to be removed.
Liek I say, it's a bit clunky but has worked well enough for the last 20k miles.
As it happens, I'll be fitting a 5 speed type 9 soon to go with an engine swap from Xflow to Zetec. I'll be keeping the box for a while in case we don't like the 5 speed!
HTH
You may well find that the 'problem' is actually down to the linkage, not the box. Our car has a 4 speed box and an early Westfield remote linkage on it. This has some play and no bias, but once you get the feel the changes are superb.
The remote was a bit of a heath-robinson thing. Short length of tube that slips over a cut-down normal stick, stud welded on the side of this tube, flat plate bolts to stud but allows movement, kind of same thing again at the actual stick end where there is a chunk of strip attached across the tunnel, the pivot for the stick is actually a clevis and a stud welded to the stip allows left-right stick movement. There is a reverse-lockout on it too, as the one in the box has to be removed.
Liek I say, it's a bit clunky but has worked well enough for the last 20k miles.
As it happens, I'll be fitting a 5 speed type 9 soon to go with an engine swap from Xflow to Zetec. I'll be keeping the box for a while in case we don't like the 5 speed!
HTH
FER,don't forget your local Westie meet is the second Sunday of the month at the Bird In Hand at Knowl Hill.Well done on getting a car.The 4 speed box is better for acceleration to the five speed,obviously depending on the diff.You can change it to 5 if you want and as MR says,you need to change the clutch plate to a 23 splined centre,the rear gearbox mount need to be cut off the chassis and I bolted a plate to the chassis rails.The propshaft is OK,but you will have to change the front joint in the gearbox(get one from a scrappy for peanuts and spend many an hour trying to get the roller cups out).I found the box made the gearlever postion come out about 5 mm further back and just needed a slight panel and gearlever gaitor tweak.and thats about it.
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