Family Trust - Change circumstances - difficult father
Discussion
Hi,
I'm a bystander to a problem that has been brewing for 12months between my wife and her father. I guess on posting here I'd like to see differing viewpoints, discuss legal options, get things off my chest and be a better support to her.
Background
In 2014 my wife's mum died at 70 years old. It was a medium term terminal respiratory condition (ironically a disease my wife specialises in at work) so her husband (wife's biological Dad) and the Mum sensibly planned their affairs, involving my wife with a trip to solicitors where documents were signed: the family home is a small holding with some land and the house was split 50/50 to tennants in common, 50% was placed into Trust on her Mum's death.
As we understand it from talking to the solicitor who drew up the Trust my wife is sole beneficiary of the 50% but her Dad has tennents rights until his death on that half. His 50% is his and he can do with it as he wishes. There is a clause that allows her Dad to sell the house but she has to sign it off. If the house was sold her Dad can use all or some of the 100% of the equity buy another house, if equity remains it gets invested and her Dad can live off the interest and then once he dies the 50% transfers to my wife.
All of the above so far is absolutely fine and ticks along nicely keeping everyone happy. Her Mum wanted to make sure her daughter (the only child) was secure and if we were to go back in the history, irrelevant, but she bought the house from proceeds from her own parents farm, the Dad put in nothing.
My wife's Dad is a difficult character at times. He is very unhappy my wife moved away at 18 years old from the rural area they live to cities such as Cardiff and then London and now the Shires around London to persue her nursing career. He wanted her to stay home and help around the house etc. Since her Mum died he has wanted her to move home for company but goes one step further and calls my wife selfish, had easy in life (we've done everything from scratch) etc - you can see and imagine the words of an angry, bitter person. Her Mum used to calm waters when she was around. We can see he is lonely, have offered options to move our way etc but he is not interested.
Changes
About 12 months ago a new clearer arrived on the scene. She is 26 years younger (he is 78). In the beginning we were happy as could see the house was getting on top of him. She seemed nice enough and was bringing him cakes and making dinner too.
Unfortunately some silverware started to go missing. No one enters the house so make of that what you will. Her Dad did confront the cleaner but came away satisfied it wasn't her. Her Dad is still fit and well and appears to be mentally with it, antiquated views aside.
4 or so months ago her father declares he is entering a relationship with the woman. Great - we do the happy for you conversations and ask the difficult questions to ascertain he is copus mentus and has considered whether she's just after his money. He comes across like teenager in love, fair enough, but alarm bells started to ring when he said during that conversation that he told the cleaner my wife only owns "half of the house" and he also disclosed he might like to leave his half to the cleaner, that the cleaner wants to give up her council house "as she does not want to run two houses" and she can't get her current boyfriend of 10 or years to move out so moving into the family home would make sense. He also said a few things about that the cleaner thinks my wife should come home with the kids more (we are 300 miles away) and that she seems to think my wife has it easy compared to her (son serving a 10 year drug related prison sentance, first husband kept her but left her etc etc).
At the time my wife was understandly taken a back and of course concerned he is being rail roaded, we have two young kids that he does think highly of so cutting them out from his half sounded odd. My wife asked if he would come to the solicitor with her to discuss what these changes might mean and how we should plan (as they're joint positions as executors to the Trust). He was not interested and brushed the situation of as my wife going over the top.
Anyway, fast forward to this week - my wife gets a text from her Dad to say Cleaner is moving in next week what do you want to do the contents of the house? He is ignoring her messages to chat on the phone.
Next Steps
Since the Trust makes no reference to what happens when her Dad dies AND there is another party living in the house we are concerned that my wife may never get her part and that the cleaner will just sit in the house for the rest of her life. Perhaps her Dad will leave his half to her, what if they get married, what if he dad leaves Tennants Rights of his half of the property for the rest of the cleaners life? Unfortuntely he is so annyoed that my wife didn't move home that this control tactic would be fitting of the past events.
My wife is not bothered what he does with his half and has said so as does not want to appear money grabbing, but of course wants to ensure she has control of her part when the father passes, sounds selfish writing it out but that was her mothers final wishes.
The ideal situation would be to persuade her Dad to visit the solicitor together, review the options and put into place a proper legal framework for the above events. He is not interested at this stage and becoming more distant so what other avenues can my wife take? Is it even necessary to take action right now? Should we get a solicitor to protect her interests - can they even do anything about this if her Dad won't play ball as everything relating to the Trust needs to be signed off by both of them.
Thanks for any input, as you can imagine it is eating my wife away. She is a nice person without a vindictive bone in her body, she's worked hard all her life - diploma, bsc, msc x 2 - with nothing given to her amongst her own wider family who inheritatated farms etc. She doesn't feel hard done by but didn't expect to be dealing with these issues.
We have spoken to the solicitior who drew up the Trust but he can only advise my wife as 1 of the executors. He is not able to clearly answer what happens in the above situation, he says I assume the house would be sold but that is not good enough.
Real life TV Soap aye.
I'm a bystander to a problem that has been brewing for 12months between my wife and her father. I guess on posting here I'd like to see differing viewpoints, discuss legal options, get things off my chest and be a better support to her.
Background
In 2014 my wife's mum died at 70 years old. It was a medium term terminal respiratory condition (ironically a disease my wife specialises in at work) so her husband (wife's biological Dad) and the Mum sensibly planned their affairs, involving my wife with a trip to solicitors where documents were signed: the family home is a small holding with some land and the house was split 50/50 to tennants in common, 50% was placed into Trust on her Mum's death.
As we understand it from talking to the solicitor who drew up the Trust my wife is sole beneficiary of the 50% but her Dad has tennents rights until his death on that half. His 50% is his and he can do with it as he wishes. There is a clause that allows her Dad to sell the house but she has to sign it off. If the house was sold her Dad can use all or some of the 100% of the equity buy another house, if equity remains it gets invested and her Dad can live off the interest and then once he dies the 50% transfers to my wife.
All of the above so far is absolutely fine and ticks along nicely keeping everyone happy. Her Mum wanted to make sure her daughter (the only child) was secure and if we were to go back in the history, irrelevant, but she bought the house from proceeds from her own parents farm, the Dad put in nothing.
My wife's Dad is a difficult character at times. He is very unhappy my wife moved away at 18 years old from the rural area they live to cities such as Cardiff and then London and now the Shires around London to persue her nursing career. He wanted her to stay home and help around the house etc. Since her Mum died he has wanted her to move home for company but goes one step further and calls my wife selfish, had easy in life (we've done everything from scratch) etc - you can see and imagine the words of an angry, bitter person. Her Mum used to calm waters when she was around. We can see he is lonely, have offered options to move our way etc but he is not interested.
Changes
About 12 months ago a new clearer arrived on the scene. She is 26 years younger (he is 78). In the beginning we were happy as could see the house was getting on top of him. She seemed nice enough and was bringing him cakes and making dinner too.
Unfortunately some silverware started to go missing. No one enters the house so make of that what you will. Her Dad did confront the cleaner but came away satisfied it wasn't her. Her Dad is still fit and well and appears to be mentally with it, antiquated views aside.
4 or so months ago her father declares he is entering a relationship with the woman. Great - we do the happy for you conversations and ask the difficult questions to ascertain he is copus mentus and has considered whether she's just after his money. He comes across like teenager in love, fair enough, but alarm bells started to ring when he said during that conversation that he told the cleaner my wife only owns "half of the house" and he also disclosed he might like to leave his half to the cleaner, that the cleaner wants to give up her council house "as she does not want to run two houses" and she can't get her current boyfriend of 10 or years to move out so moving into the family home would make sense. He also said a few things about that the cleaner thinks my wife should come home with the kids more (we are 300 miles away) and that she seems to think my wife has it easy compared to her (son serving a 10 year drug related prison sentance, first husband kept her but left her etc etc).
At the time my wife was understandly taken a back and of course concerned he is being rail roaded, we have two young kids that he does think highly of so cutting them out from his half sounded odd. My wife asked if he would come to the solicitor with her to discuss what these changes might mean and how we should plan (as they're joint positions as executors to the Trust). He was not interested and brushed the situation of as my wife going over the top.
Anyway, fast forward to this week - my wife gets a text from her Dad to say Cleaner is moving in next week what do you want to do the contents of the house? He is ignoring her messages to chat on the phone.
Next Steps
Since the Trust makes no reference to what happens when her Dad dies AND there is another party living in the house we are concerned that my wife may never get her part and that the cleaner will just sit in the house for the rest of her life. Perhaps her Dad will leave his half to her, what if they get married, what if he dad leaves Tennants Rights of his half of the property for the rest of the cleaners life? Unfortuntely he is so annyoed that my wife didn't move home that this control tactic would be fitting of the past events.
My wife is not bothered what he does with his half and has said so as does not want to appear money grabbing, but of course wants to ensure she has control of her part when the father passes, sounds selfish writing it out but that was her mothers final wishes.
The ideal situation would be to persuade her Dad to visit the solicitor together, review the options and put into place a proper legal framework for the above events. He is not interested at this stage and becoming more distant so what other avenues can my wife take? Is it even necessary to take action right now? Should we get a solicitor to protect her interests - can they even do anything about this if her Dad won't play ball as everything relating to the Trust needs to be signed off by both of them.
Thanks for any input, as you can imagine it is eating my wife away. She is a nice person without a vindictive bone in her body, she's worked hard all her life - diploma, bsc, msc x 2 - with nothing given to her amongst her own wider family who inheritatated farms etc. She doesn't feel hard done by but didn't expect to be dealing with these issues.
We have spoken to the solicitior who drew up the Trust but he can only advise my wife as 1 of the executors. He is not able to clearly answer what happens in the above situation, he says I assume the house would be sold but that is not good enough.
Real life TV Soap aye.
Wow, there is a lot going on there, I would suggest your wife takes legal advice independently from her father to fully understand the implications/risks of the situation. Do you have a copy of the trust deed (I think this is the correct term) and know who the Trustees of the trust are.
I have been through dealing with an estate including a property in trust, it was a right PITA and that is with a good probate specialist involved.
You also need to understand how your wife values the relationship with her father, it already appears strained and this situation could break it.
Regarding the contents of the house, I suspect when the mother passed away these were passed to her father, considering the strained relationship I would visit and if possible remove any items that have emotional or sentimental value to your wife subject to her fathers agreement.
An alternative view could be all the stuff related to the cleaner moving in, relationship, etc is make believe and he is using it to get your wife back home, has any of it been confirmed independently?
I have been through dealing with an estate including a property in trust, it was a right PITA and that is with a good probate specialist involved.
You also need to understand how your wife values the relationship with her father, it already appears strained and this situation could break it.
Regarding the contents of the house, I suspect when the mother passed away these were passed to her father, considering the strained relationship I would visit and if possible remove any items that have emotional or sentimental value to your wife subject to her fathers agreement.
An alternative view could be all the stuff related to the cleaner moving in, relationship, etc is make believe and he is using it to get your wife back home, has any of it been confirmed independently?
Thanks!
We don't have a copy of the Trust document yet but do have her Mums will that lists the conditions of the Trust. It is just her father and herself as executors and they must sign off everything together. There is scenario in it about him meeting someone else, which on the face of is perfect for him as we are long distant away but this particular person smells bad.
The relationship is confirmed in the sense that people in the community know about it and my wife has received some sloppy text messages meant for her from her Dad - got to love whatsapp! He writes one liners to my wife but a lot more detail in what has been sent in error. That was how my wife was able to confirm he was in a relationship a few months ago as he did not tell her when we visited, but the message appeared a week or so later when we got home and she asked again.
RE Contents there is a lot what I would call old people porcelin and the Cleaner has already let it known to her Dad that she does not like it and would like to sell it (he told us that when we were last visiting).
It is now strained relationship unfortuntatley.
We're based ourselves near Cambridge, if anyone reading can recommend Family Law solicitors that would be great. PM would be fine.
We don't have a copy of the Trust document yet but do have her Mums will that lists the conditions of the Trust. It is just her father and herself as executors and they must sign off everything together. There is scenario in it about him meeting someone else, which on the face of is perfect for him as we are long distant away but this particular person smells bad.
The relationship is confirmed in the sense that people in the community know about it and my wife has received some sloppy text messages meant for her from her Dad - got to love whatsapp! He writes one liners to my wife but a lot more detail in what has been sent in error. That was how my wife was able to confirm he was in a relationship a few months ago as he did not tell her when we visited, but the message appeared a week or so later when we got home and she asked again.
RE Contents there is a lot what I would call old people porcelin and the Cleaner has already let it known to her Dad that she does not like it and would like to sell it (he told us that when we were last visiting).
It is now strained relationship unfortuntatley.
We're based ourselves near Cambridge, if anyone reading can recommend Family Law solicitors that would be great. PM would be fine.
_Mja_ said:
Thanks!
We don't have a copy of the Trust document yet but do have her Mums will that lists the conditions of the Trust. It is just her father and herself as executors and they must sign off everything together. There is scenario in it about him meeting someone else, which on the face of is perfect for him as we are long distant away but this particular person smells bad.
If I am reading the above correctly, your wife and her father were executors of her late mothers will, which setup a trust containing the house and your wife and her father are beneficiaries of the trust rather than trustees. I believe there could/should be an independent trustee as well, there was with the trust I had to deal with and it was the solicitor who dealt with the probate.We don't have a copy of the Trust document yet but do have her Mums will that lists the conditions of the Trust. It is just her father and herself as executors and they must sign off everything together. There is scenario in it about him meeting someone else, which on the face of is perfect for him as we are long distant away but this particular person smells bad.
Trusts are complex so do take advice.
_Mja_ said:
Thanks!
We don't have a copy of the Trust document yet but do have her Mums will that lists the conditions of the Trust. It is just her father and herself as executors and they must sign off everything together. There is scenario in it about him meeting someone else, which on the face of is perfect for him as we are long distant away but this particular person smells bad.
What does the Will / Trust say about Father meeting someone else? We don't have a copy of the Trust document yet but do have her Mums will that lists the conditions of the Trust. It is just her father and herself as executors and they must sign off everything together. There is scenario in it about him meeting someone else, which on the face of is perfect for him as we are long distant away but this particular person smells bad.
Just thinking about this from the father's perspective; is there a chance that the 'relationship' was started as some kind of nuclear option when your wife wasn't prepared to move closer to him? It could be that he started the relationship without ever really wanting to progress it but now he finds himself rather trapped and his own stubbornness is preventing him from ending it. Is that an angle worth exploring or is it pretty clear that this is a genuine bilateral thing that he's fully invested in?
Percy Cushion said:
What does the Will / Trust say about Father meeting someone else?
Unfortunately nothing. This is the part we would like her father and her to go to the solicitor about - we've basically presented it as look Dad, things have changed, the Trust Mum's half of the property is in does not account for this circumstance. Can we add a clause we are both happy with that the house gets sold on your Death and my wife's interest released and you do with what yours as you will but he is having none of it.My wife has spoken to the solicitor with me present - nice chap and he can advise my wife as an executor of her Mums will. I have it here - it says "I appoint my Husband xyz and daughter to be executors and trustees"
Trustees is then defined as "my personal representatives and the trustees of the Will and any trust that might arise under it"
Probably best if I document what it says - the will then goes on to a new section called "Life Interest in the xyz (the family home)"
Some clauses and definitions:
Life Tenant = husband
Property Trustees = husband and my wife
Trust Period = between mums’ death and death of life Tenant
"the Trust Fund" = mums property whether lease of freehold which I own at the death free of any mortgage/charge and if that property does not exists then I give instead the property owned and used as principle residence - this bit is about planning for whether they moved but they didn’t.
"interest in possession" = shall have the same meaning it has for the purposes of the Inheritance Tax Act 1984
-Trust fund given to the Property Trustees upon the following trusts.
-Property Trustees shall pay the income of the Trust Fund to the Life Tenant for the Trust Period (I take this mean if there was money invested then the income on those investments goes to her Dad - all good).
-The Property Trustees may at any time or times during the Trust Period as to the whole or any part of the Trust Fund in which the Life Tenant has for the time being an in possession lend money or assets comprised in the Trust Fund to the Life Tenant on such terms as the Property Trustees think fit.
-I declare that in exercising the powers conferred upon the Property Trustees in clause (last one above) the Property Trustees shall be entitled to have regard solely the interests of the Life Tenant and to disregard all other interests or potential interesting under my Will.
-subject as above the property trustees shall permit the life tenant to occupy or use rent free and property or assets which or the beneficial interest in which is for the time being comprised in the Trust Fund subject to those conditions for the payment of outgoings insurance repair decoration and other matters as the Property Trustees shall from time consider reasonable.
-subject as above the Property Trustees shall hold the capital and income of the Trust Fund for my daughters and if daughter shall fail to obtain a vested interest leaving issue who are living at the end of the trust then such issue shall take by substitution and if there shall be more than one of such issue they shall take in equal share per stripes but so that no issue shall take whose parent is alive and so capable of taking
Then some parts about Gifts to family members
Gift of Residue to her husband
Further Gift of Residue to my wife/her daughter
Standard provisions - Society of Trust and Estate Practitioners a
Statement of intention not to make mutual wills - husband and wife are free to revoke our wills at any time.
SiH said:
Just thinking about this from the father's perspective; is there a chance that the 'relationship' was started as some kind of nuclear option when your wife wasn't prepared to move closer to him? It could be that he started the relationship without ever really wanting to progress it but now he finds himself rather trapped and his own stubbornness is preventing him from ending it. Is that an angle worth exploring or is it pretty clear that this is a genuine bilateral thing that he's fully invested in?
This could well be an angle as well. He's tumbled down a path and can't get back. He is open enough to admit that if it is the case. He is a traditional man - he expects a woman to cook him food at a certain time of day, clean the house, make pack lunches. Her Mum used to this and he misses it. He can just about cook these days but I see his point of view - he's an old man, lonely - he just wants a woman about the house that will do all those things for him. If that means promising her the world then so be it. We get that and that is broadly OK, it's just what happens when he passes and she's living in the house - how does my wife get rid of her and whatever share she owns in the kindest possible sense. Will she have sitting tenant rights over my wifes interest in the proeprty?
Couple of thoughts.
What does the land registry say about ownership?
Also this:-
"-subject as above the Property Trustees shall hold the capital and income of the Trust Fund for my daughters and if daughter shall fail to obtain a vested interest leaving issue who are living at the end of the trust then such issue shall take by substitution and if there shall be more than one of such issue they shall take in equal share per stripes but so that no issue shall take whose parent is alive and so capable of taking"
Are you sure it's 50-50? where does it say this? because this clause doesn't
You really do need proper legal advice that can't be given here.
What does the land registry say about ownership?
Also this:-
"-subject as above the Property Trustees shall hold the capital and income of the Trust Fund for my daughters and if daughter shall fail to obtain a vested interest leaving issue who are living at the end of the trust then such issue shall take by substitution and if there shall be more than one of such issue they shall take in equal share per stripes but so that no issue shall take whose parent is alive and so capable of taking"
Are you sure it's 50-50? where does it say this? because this clause doesn't
You really do need proper legal advice that can't be given here.
I get the point of asking questions on a forum where there are a variety of people to seek opinions so I wouldn't just write this off as 'go away and get legal advice'.
You can ignore my earlier comment as it was just a joke.
Perhaps something you can do for real is as follows. I remember a very similar situation with my granddad when he was alive. He outlived my grandmother by 10 years and up until that point she had done all the housework and most of the cooking. Aside from the usefulness of a helpful partner (it isn't always the woman) humans are generally social creatures and do like to coexist with another, even without it being a traditional husband and wife partnership. My grandfather was desperate for company during his final years and tried to strike up a new relationship with a much younger woman same as this situation but I guess she wasn't up for it as it didn't develop despite his best efforts. In the end he had regular visits from carers and my dad used to go over several times a week to keep him supplied with cigars.
So perhaps the best way to deal with this is to acknowledge the work this cleaner is prepared to put into this relationship by speaking to her directly and frankly. Tell her she can have 25% of what's left after all bills are settled and the house has been sold upon the passing of the father as an acknowledgement of the companionship ect. Point out if this cannot be done then less acrimonious more formal legal proceedings will have to follow but if she could persuade the old man to agree to a settlement that is probably easier than anything else. And to be fair, if she is prepared to put up with him and wash his dirty clothes ect then what is that worth over the next 10 years? In the longrun it may even save money!
You can ignore my earlier comment as it was just a joke.
Perhaps something you can do for real is as follows. I remember a very similar situation with my granddad when he was alive. He outlived my grandmother by 10 years and up until that point she had done all the housework and most of the cooking. Aside from the usefulness of a helpful partner (it isn't always the woman) humans are generally social creatures and do like to coexist with another, even without it being a traditional husband and wife partnership. My grandfather was desperate for company during his final years and tried to strike up a new relationship with a much younger woman same as this situation but I guess she wasn't up for it as it didn't develop despite his best efforts. In the end he had regular visits from carers and my dad used to go over several times a week to keep him supplied with cigars.
So perhaps the best way to deal with this is to acknowledge the work this cleaner is prepared to put into this relationship by speaking to her directly and frankly. Tell her she can have 25% of what's left after all bills are settled and the house has been sold upon the passing of the father as an acknowledgement of the companionship ect. Point out if this cannot be done then less acrimonious more formal legal proceedings will have to follow but if she could persuade the old man to agree to a settlement that is probably easier than anything else. And to be fair, if she is prepared to put up with him and wash his dirty clothes ect then what is that worth over the next 10 years? In the longrun it may even save money!
ingenieur - I like that idea actually - I will present to my wife as another school of thought. This is the sort stuff I had hoped to get out of the thread as well, how best I can help my wife think differently about it.
Re the 50/50 - good point it does not say. The solicitor did say her parents split the house 50/50 on the telophone call but not in writing so good point that needs investigating futher.
Re Land Registery - I've looked but they bought the house before online records. This is actually another outstanding question.The house sits in a couple of acres and that is what was bought originally. Years later her father's brother bought another 15 acres and we are unsure if that is included in the Trust. Her father was being bought out of his own family home by his brother who was a bachlor and inheritated it (or refused to leave but either way he is now deceased and property sold)
Re the 50/50 - good point it does not say. The solicitor did say her parents split the house 50/50 on the telophone call but not in writing so good point that needs investigating futher.
Re Land Registery - I've looked but they bought the house before online records. This is actually another outstanding question.The house sits in a couple of acres and that is what was bought originally. Years later her father's brother bought another 15 acres and we are unsure if that is included in the Trust. Her father was being bought out of his own family home by his brother who was a bachlor and inheritated it (or refused to leave but either way he is now deceased and property sold)
When my father died he left his property in a very similar situation with his then wife, not my mum, but there was a clause in the trust/will that only she is able to live in the house, if she meets someone and wants to move them in/move in with them the property must be sold and she takes her 50% and I get mine. so have a look through the will/trust wording to see if this applies for you.
_Mja_ said:
and the house was split 50/50 to tennants in common,
and the fact you say it is not registered as was "before digital records" are incompatible. If the ownership of the property was changed to tenants in common it MUST have been registered at that time. It all suggests all is not what it seems....mr rusty said:
_Mja_ said:
and the house was split 50/50 to tennants in common,
and the fact you say it is not registered as was "before digital records" are incompatible. If the ownership of the property was changed to tenants in common it MUST have been registered at that time. It all suggests all is not what it seems....2ono said:
When my father died he left his property in a very similar situation with his then wife, not my mum, but there was a clause in the trust/will that only she is able to live in the house, if she meets someone and wants to move them in/move in with them the property must be sold and she takes her 50% and I get mine. so have a look through the will/trust wording to see if this applies for you.
That's actually in my own mums will with her partner, my step Dad. They are very open - basically if one dies and meets another the house gets sold. If they want to live alone the house remains. Not in my wife's Mum's though - the above is all we have. Wife is going to ask the solicitor for a copy of the trust paperwork assuming there is more than what is written in the Will.
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