The Green Agenda and Cost of Living

[Tom8]

I am very much a climate sceptic although happier to have cleaner less wasteful society. The climate has always changed and always will. The mantra that we are going to die in a big fireball in a couple of years time doesn't wash. However there are many that do believe in what they are fed and keep telling us we are in a "climate emergency"

Now we have cut lumps out of fossil fuel energy production and dithered over nuclear but have lots of lovely "green" turbines (which let us down last year as it wasn't windy enough), lots of electric cars sucking from the grid, we have a massive energy deficit.

Then hey presto a massive spike in costs and no sign of a reduction in this cost in the future either. Now the same "climate emergency" squealers are squealing that they have to pay for it. Should we all just take it on the chin (or in the pocket) and move on?

Now today the gov't has realised it has lost billions in tax revenue with the electric car revolution and combined with the cost of covid they don't have any cash to offer any protection against energy costs or the NI rise that will be crippling whatever you earn.

Could we not stop the hysteria and take a rational look at this and the impact of all the changes before jumping on them because of silly catch phrases to scare people?

[EVLATECOMER]

Tom8 said:

I am very much a climate sceptic although happier to have cleaner less wasteful society. The climate has always changed and always will. The mantra that we are going to die in a big fireball in a couple of years time doesn't wash. However there are many that do believe in what they are fed and keep telling us we are in a "climate emergency"

Now we have cut lumps out of fossil fuel energy production and dithered over nuclear but have lots of lovely "green" turbines (which let us down last year as it wasn't windy enough), lots of electric cars sucking from the grid, we have a massive energy deficit.

Then hey presto a massive spike in costs and no sign of a reduction in this cost in the future either. Now the same "climate emergency" squealers are squealing that they have to pay for it. Should we all just take it on the chin (or in the pocket) and move on?

Now today the gov't has realised it has lost billions in tax revenue with the electric car revolution and combined with the cost of covid they don't have any cash to offer any protection against energy costs or the NI rise that will be crippling whatever you earn.

Could we not stop the hysteria and take a rational look at this and the impact of all the changes before jumping on them because of silly catch phrases to scare people?

How many billions have they lost in tax revenue due to the electric car revolution then?

[S17Thumper]

Tom, U ok hun?

[Tom8]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60251046

35 billion!!

[ZedLeg]

The spike in energy costs has nothing to do with climate change though, it's political.

The government could easily help out with this but they've pissed all the money away on handouts for their mates. The very last thing this government is concerned with is the welfare of people with no money.

[Tom8]

It does because we have turned off a lot of sources like coal so dependency goes up on other supplies, namely gas. Germany binned coal (and nuclear?) so greater demand on a resource so cost goes up.

[Fusion777]

Tom8 said:

I am very much a climate sceptic

That rules out any chance of sensible debate, then. So many errors in your post that I don't know where to start.

What's your plan then? Sack off doing anything about climate change and go back to coal?

[Tom8]

Fusion777 said:

That rules out any chance of sensible debate, then. So many errors in your post that I don't know where to start.

What's your plan then? Sack off doing anything about climate change and go back to coal?

So you can't accept anyone else's view only your own? Good start.

If you read the post the question is rather than piling in and turning everything off to "go green" can the process be halted to review if the alternatives are available and work first practically and financially?

Or carry on but stop the moaning about the cost of energy/cost of living and get on with it as that is the choice you have made without checking it can work first.

[Tomm3]

Tom8 said:

I am very much a climate sceptic although happier to have cleaner less wasteful society. The climate has always changed and always will. The mantra that we are going to die in a big fireball in a couple of years time doesn't wash. However there are many that do believe in what they are fed and keep telling us we are in a "climate emergency"

Now we have cut lumps out of fossil fuel energy production and dithered over nuclear but have lots of lovely "green" turbines (which let us down last year as it wasn't windy enough), lots of electric cars sucking from the grid, we have a massive energy deficit.

Then hey presto a massive spike in costs and no sign of a reduction in this cost in the future either. Now the same "climate emergency" squealers are squealing that they have to pay for it. Should we all just take it on the chin (or in the pocket) and move on?

Now today the gov't has realised it has lost billions in tax revenue with the electric car revolution and combined with the cost of covid they don't have any cash to offer any protection against energy costs or the NI rise that will be crippling whatever you earn.

Could we not stop the hysteria and take a rational look at this and the impact of all the changes before jumping on them because of silly catch phrases to scare people?

Christ, look out mate, that's all true what you say but you'll get battered on here!!
For some, the green idyll is worth whatever grim future lies ahead for the masses. They're either making money out of it or comfortably placed to ride it out.
Sad times.

[carinaman]

Not part of the Great Reset then?

We'll be stuck at home hugging our Heat Pumps and wearing two woolen jumpers.

Gates and Harvard want to put aerosol dust into the atmosphere to shield us from the sun's rays.

[46and2]

carinaman said:

Gates and Harvard want to put aerosol dust into the atmosphere to shield us from the sun's rays.

Hmm, can't see anything going wrong with that.....

[Fusion777]

Tom8 said:

So you can't accept anyone else's view only your own? Good start.

If you read the post the question is rather than piling in and turning everything off to "go green" can the process be halted to review if the alternatives are available and work first practically and financially?

Or carry on but stop the moaning about the cost of energy/cost of living and get on with it as that is the choice you have made without checking it can work first.

Climate change isn't something I have a view on, I acknowledge the overwhelming scientific consensus on it. What do you mean by alternatives? Alternatives in power generation?

[Tom8]

Tomm3 said:

Christ, look out mate, that's all true what you say but you'll get battered on here!!
For some, the green idyll is worth whatever grim future lies ahead for the masses. They're either making money out of it or comfortably placed to ride it out.
Sad times.

It is sad where any attempt to discuss or debate anything is immediately shut down (see above). Little wonder so many issues continue and are never addressed and group think is entrenched.

[Tom8]

Fusion777 said:

Climate change isn't something I have a view on, I acknowledge the overwhelming scientific consensus on it. What do you mean by alternatives? Alternatives in power generation?

All aspects from demand, consumption, generation. Clearly we have a massive imbalance right now and nothing to plug the gap hence such drastic increase in cost due to unprecedented demand.

Rather than go straight to all EVs for example, placing a massive demand on supply and a huge lost of tax revenue at the same time could it not have been a transition from fossil fuel - hybrid then EV if hybrid doesn't impact or the infrastructure and generation is ready for ubiquitous Evs? Hyrbids and ever improving technologies seemed like a really good idea irrespective of green agenda.

[roger.mellie]

Tom8 said:

It is sad where any attempt to discuss or debate anything is immediately shut down (see above). Little wonder so many issues continue and are never addressed and group think is entrenched.

You started the thread, it has not been shut down, but yes flower nobody was supposed to have an opinion that disagreed with your's unless you could get others to pile on.

[Fusion777]

Tom8 said:

All aspects from demand, consumption, generation. Clearly we have a massive imbalance right now and nothing to plug the gap hence such drastic increase in cost due to unprecedented demand.

Rather than go straight to all EVs for example, placing a massive demand on supply and a huge lost of tax revenue at the same time could it not have been a transition from fossil fuel - hybrid then EV if hybrid doesn't impact or the infrastructure and generation is ready for ubiquitous Evs? Hyrbids and ever improving technologies seemed like a really good idea irrespective of green agenda.

I think we are transitioning though. We're going from ICE to mild hybrid to plug-in hybrid, and full EV is playing a part, but it's quite small at the moment (but growing). Power demand isn't increasing much, it's actually lower than it was in 2000. National Grid have said that there is plenty of spare capacity in the grid currently also.

There are multiple factors behind the current price increases. Global gas demand is higher, but I don't think UK gas demand has changed that much. I'm all for energy independence though whether through nuclear, renewables or other means.

The government will find a way to claw back lost tax, don't worry about that one.

[Dog Star]

Ignoring the "CLIMATE EMERGENCY" and "GLOBAL ***HEATING***" the fact is that all of this green economy stuff is hugely expensive. I'm very very cynical of the motives behind it, and why BoJo (or any other mainstream politicians) are so keen to jump in bed with it - there's got to be some angle and something in it for them.

Paying to make us all green and these thousands of "green jobs" he was harping on about is going to cost. A lot. It'll be more to drive. Insulate your homes to minimum standards - some tt will come round and charge you a bomb to look at your house (like those HIPS reports. But more expensive). More windmills. Bit of tax on your log burner. That one's coming. Hey! Brake pad dust and rubber as your tyres wear!!! Bit of tax - maybe a tenner per inch diameter of wheel with a width multiplier? Hows that sound? Ooh - everyone is riding a bicycle now they can't afford to drive - well we need registration scheme. It'll need paying for..... guess what.....

Some of the above is, obviously a bit tongue in cheek, but I'm getting a bit fearful for the future - not because of climate change, but because of the rafts and rafts of restrictions and taxes that we are obviously coming. And people keep lapping it up.

We. the UK, despite being a G7 nation are a bit of a rounding error in the scheme of things - true we consume stuff manufactured abroad, but the other arguments as to why we should voluntarily stick ourselves back in the stone age always involve Tarquin or Cressida from Islington saying "but we have to be a good example" or the cracker I saw the other day "we did it during the industrial revolution so we need to pay for it now". Utter loons.

I'm a little encouraged by the people of Manchester pushing back massively against some of these measures predicated on bad data and total lies (see CAZ thread), but overall I'm not hopeful. We have already trashed our economy with Brexit and then Covid, next up lets live in a fking yurt - but on the way lets remove people's freedom of internal movement (or at least their choice and convenience in how they do it) and turn the entire country into some ill thought out patchwork of charging zones rather like some latter day turnpike systems. And to cap it off they'll introduce pay-per-mile BUT won't remove any of the other taxes and levies - it'll all be as-well.

Welcome to the green utopia!

[Fusion777]

Some people are quick to focus on the perceived economic negatives of the green push, but there are massive potential upsides. Everything from turbine production and design, high voltage line installation, software, hydrogen production (electrolysers), battery manufacturing are all big growth areas and will require lots and lots of skilled employees.

I work for an engineering company specialising in vehicle electronics, and we're seeing a raft of business from new players in the electric space. One particular company is new and UK based, and design and manufacture their own smart charging systems for vehicles and homes. They're interesting in us being a manufacturing partner. Boom- jobs created in design and manufacture. All UK based. We should be embracing the very real and present opportunities coming our way in this sector, because they are huge and very lucrative.

We should be getting on board and establishing ourselves as a major player, not sitting on the bylines. Technology is moving fast and if we deliberate, the chance will be gone.

[JagLover]

Dog Star said:

Ignoring the "CLIMATE EMERGENCY" and "GLOBAL ***HEATING***" the fact is that all of this green economy stuff is hugely expensive. I'm very very cynical of the motives behind it, and why BoJo (or any other mainstream politicians) are so keen to jump in bed with it - there's got to be some angle and something in it for them.

There is money in it for them.

The ordinary working population will have their living standards systematically reduced in the name of net zero while plenty in the establishment will be raking it in via subsidies.

I do not have a strong opinion either way on the reality of man made climate change. I would have once accepted it more unquestioningly before I saw the exact same tactics used in the Covid pandemic. Appeals to authority, but only a restricted number of authority figures with consensus views, all alternative views shut down, and reliance on modelling.

Whether it is real or not though we aren't going to do much good bankrupting ourselves while the likes of China continue as normal. Energy security through low carbon energy at a reasonable price, fine. Everything involved with "net zero" no way and the recent jump in energy costs is only a taster of what "net zero" will bring.

[Tom8]

roger.mellie said:

You started the thread, it has not been shut down, but yes flower nobody was supposed to have an opinion that disagreed with your's unless you could get others to pile on.

I think you misunderstand. Shut down meaning individuals dismissing any alternative view not physically turning it off.