Fraudulent debit card purchases
Discussion
I'm looking to tap into the widespread knowledge of some PHers. Please be patient.
It came to my son's attention over the Xmas break that someone had used his card to make a purchase at a convenience store in Nottingham, about 150 miles from our home in Durham. The purchase was £130 plus pennies. Upon further checking of his statements, he realised that in fact three separate purchases had been made, two at the same shop and one at a shop on the same street. These purchases had been about a month apart. 1 in November, 1 in December and 1 in January.
Naturally, he got onto the bank instantly to cancel his card and prevent any further transactions.
He has spoken to the bank (who like to be 'by your side') and essentially they washed their hands of the problem. The transactions were 'chip and pin' and the bank claim he must have made the purchases himself or given his card and pin to someone else. The bank passed him to their fraud section who likewise washed their hands. They advised him to go to the police. He did that and the local police just laughed. They had 'no line of enquiry' and advised him to go back to the bank!
So, we wrote an official complaint, to which we have just had a reply and the bank has once again said it is not possible to forge the card and either he made the purchases himself or, he has given his card and details to someone else. They have tried to say that perhaps the convenience stores are part of a larger chain of companies with a head office on the street in question. They appear to be merely local 'independent' convenience stores and not part of a larger chain.
Where do we go from here?
He certainly has not travelled 150 miles each way to make a purchase. Infact he has never been to Nottingham in his life.
Can chip and pin cards be forged?
Is this a police matter?
What do you do when the bank is clearly not 'by your side' and is not interested?
Any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
It came to my son's attention over the Xmas break that someone had used his card to make a purchase at a convenience store in Nottingham, about 150 miles from our home in Durham. The purchase was £130 plus pennies. Upon further checking of his statements, he realised that in fact three separate purchases had been made, two at the same shop and one at a shop on the same street. These purchases had been about a month apart. 1 in November, 1 in December and 1 in January.
Naturally, he got onto the bank instantly to cancel his card and prevent any further transactions.
He has spoken to the bank (who like to be 'by your side') and essentially they washed their hands of the problem. The transactions were 'chip and pin' and the bank claim he must have made the purchases himself or given his card and pin to someone else. The bank passed him to their fraud section who likewise washed their hands. They advised him to go to the police. He did that and the local police just laughed. They had 'no line of enquiry' and advised him to go back to the bank!
So, we wrote an official complaint, to which we have just had a reply and the bank has once again said it is not possible to forge the card and either he made the purchases himself or, he has given his card and details to someone else. They have tried to say that perhaps the convenience stores are part of a larger chain of companies with a head office on the street in question. They appear to be merely local 'independent' convenience stores and not part of a larger chain.
Where do we go from here?
He certainly has not travelled 150 miles each way to make a purchase. Infact he has never been to Nottingham in his life.
Can chip and pin cards be forged?
Is this a police matter?
What do you do when the bank is clearly not 'by your side' and is not interested?
Any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
There was this from 15 years ago: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=34...
My recollection is that it was a combination of card cloning and filming customers entering their PINs, but it was 15 years ago so I can't be sure.
My recollection is that it was a combination of card cloning and filming customers entering their PINs, but it was 15 years ago so I can't be sure.
hyphen said:
In the reply to your complaint, did it advise you on your next stage? The financial ombudsman for example. From memory, the banks have a code of conduct to follow when deciding to refund or not. So have a read of that document and previous case examples.
Thank you for your reply.Obviously we are not happy with their response and have asked how we can escalate our complaint further. They are going to provide us with details on how to involve the financial ombudsman.
Woodbutcher said:
Thank you for your reply.
Obviously we are not happy with their response and have asked how we can escalate our complaint further. They are going to provide us with details on how to involve the financial ombudsman.
The bank will deal with your complaint, then issue you with a final response letter. the letter will then have referral rights towards the bottom to the effect of 'you have the right to refer this to the financial ombudsman...'Obviously we are not happy with their response and have asked how we can escalate our complaint further. They are going to provide us with details on how to involve the financial ombudsman.
in some cases an additional line will ahve 'but must do so with x-months of this letter' (usually 6 months).
From then on bring up a case with FOS, fill out a complaint form, give em the FRL, and follow the process. Can take anywhere from 6-12 months (maybe more in rare circumstances).
trevalvole said:
There was this from 15 years ago: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=34...
My recollection is that it was a combination of card cloning and filming customers entering their PINs, but it was 15 years ago so I can't be sure.
Thank you.My recollection is that it was a combination of card cloning and filming customers entering their PINs, but it was 15 years ago so I can't be sure.
Very interesting, clearly shows that this is not new and despite the bank's claims, it is obviously very possible to 'steal' security details and fraudulently make purchases/withdraw funds.
The bank has told us that it is not possible to fraud 'chip and pin' and yet there's the evidence.
Cheers
Woodbutcher said:
trevalvole said:
There was this from 15 years ago: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=34...
My recollection is that it was a combination of card cloning and filming customers entering their PINs, but it was 15 years ago so I can't be sure.
Thank you.My recollection is that it was a combination of card cloning and filming customers entering their PINs, but it was 15 years ago so I can't be sure.
Very interesting, clearly shows that this is not new and despite the bank's claims, it is obviously very possible to 'steal' security details and fraudulently make purchases/withdraw funds.
The bank has told us that it is not possible to fraud 'chip and pin' and yet there's the evidence.
Cheers
That BBC item is 15 years old, I doubt anything is still the same.
The bank is probably correct if they believe the transactions to be valid. Most similar cases turn out - sometimes years later - to be a card/PIN obtained by, and used by, a friend/relative of the account holder. Nobody ever believes it at the time but eventual confirmation by the culprit usually explains how it happened.
The bank is probably correct if they believe the transactions to be valid. Most similar cases turn out - sometimes years later - to be a card/PIN obtained by, and used by, a friend/relative of the account holder. Nobody ever believes it at the time but eventual confirmation by the culprit usually explains how it happened.
Woodbutcher said:
...
Any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
You have come across one of the unwritten rules in bank fraud rules.Any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Basically, if the transaction is "chip and pin" (or 3d secure for online transactions) then they work on the assumption the fraud is the responsibility of the customer.
If it wasn't chip+pin, they would have immediately refunded your son (and then immediately after reimbursed themselves by extracting the money directly from the retailer's merchant account).
The police won't be interested - at the risk of sounding like I am telling a tall story, in my company we had a 'client' spend nearly £100k on a debit card, paid in 5 separate parts. Each part was fully 3d secure.
The criminal in that case had installed some key logging software onto the card holder's computer and had harvested all of their personal details, including banking credentials. Despite it being a very large fraud, the police were not interested.
In terms of what your son can do, any proper criminal who has gone to the effort to clone a card and find the valid chip+pin number is going to want to extract a lot more than a few hundred pounds. Particularly if it was done at a convenience store which will likely have cctv etc. Sorry to say but the most likely option is that he accidently gave control of the card to someone.
Does your son know anyone who lives in Nottingham? And does he still have the physical card?
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 9th February 23:00
The magnetic stripe can be cloned but the chip cannot - any cloned card transactions would fall back to the mag stripe being read.
There are no known cases of the chip being cloned and used.
If the bank is saying it’s chip and pin then the genuine card has been used as they can see if the chip has been read and also as correctly stated above the PIN use whether successful or unsuccessful attempts.
It’s either son, friend, family member or he’s been approached to make some easy/fast cash by selling his details Including card & PIN.
There are no known cases of the chip being cloned and used.
If the bank is saying it’s chip and pin then the genuine card has been used as they can see if the chip has been read and also as correctly stated above the PIN use whether successful or unsuccessful attempts.
It’s either son, friend, family member or he’s been approached to make some easy/fast cash by selling his details Including card & PIN.
Edited by Pow3rL3ss on Wednesday 9th February 23:44
Edited by Pow3rL3ss on Wednesday 9th February 23:44
EddieSteadyGo said:
Woodbutcher said:
...
Any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
You have come across one of the unwritten rules in bank fraud rules.Any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Basically, if the transaction is "chip and pin" (or 3d secure for online transactions) then they work on the assumption the fraud is the responsibility of the customer.
If it wasn't chip+pin, they would have immediately refunded your son (and then immediately after reimbursed themselves by extracting the money directly from the retailer's merchant account).
The police won't be interested - at the risk of sounding like I am telling a tall story, in my company we had a 'client' spend nearly £100k on a debit card, paid in 5 separate parts. Each part was fully 3d secure.
The criminal in that case had installed some key logging software onto the card holder's computer and had harvested all of their personal details, including banking credentials. Despite it being a very large fraud, the police were not interested.
In terms of what your son can do, any proper criminal who has gone to the effort to clone a card and find the valid chip+pin number is going to want to extract a lot more than a few hundred pounds. Particularly if it was done at a convenience store which will likely have cctv etc. Sorry to say but the most likely option is that he accidently gave control of the card to someone.
Does your son know anyone who lives in Nottingham? And does he still have the physical card?
Edited by EddieSteadyGo on Wednesday 9th February 23:00
This whole case is beyond us and there are several aspects that we find confusing and I agree with much of what your saying.
No, he does not know anyone in Nottingham and I believe he has now destroyed the card. He has never been to Nottingham once in his life, let alone on three separate occasions.
The card was used 3 times (twice in the same store), but on each occasion about 4 weeks apart.
One of the confusing aspects is that the day before the first transaction, he had £18,000 in the account to buy a new truck. To loose that amount would have been catastrophic to him.
A further unusual aspect is that about an hour after one of the transactions, he genuinely drew money out of his account at a local post office here in Durham. It is not possible to travel from Nottingham to Durham in an hour!
Our son lives on his own and tells us that he has never given his card or details to anyone else.
In conclusion, we are totally mystified but thanks for your obvious knowledge in this area.
Pow3rL3ss said:
The magnetic stripe can be cloned but the chip cannot - any cloned card transactions would fall back to the mag stripe being read.
There are no known cases of the chip being cloned and used.
If the bank is saying it’s chip and pin then the genuine card has been used as they can see if the chip has been read and also as correctly stated above the PIN use whether successful or unsuccessful attempts.
It’s either son, friend, family member or he’s been approached to make some easy/fast cash by selling his details Including card & PIN.
Thanks for the info and you will see in my reply to Eddie that we believe our son is telling the truth.There are no known cases of the chip being cloned and used.
If the bank is saying it’s chip and pin then the genuine card has been used as they can see if the chip has been read and also as correctly stated above the PIN use whether successful or unsuccessful attempts.
It’s either son, friend, family member or he’s been approached to make some easy/fast cash by selling his details Including card & PIN.
Edited by Pow3rL3ss on Wednesday 9th February 23:44
Edited by Pow3rL3ss on Wednesday 9th February 23:44
However, you are clearly knowledgeable in this area.
I'm not sure what could be gained by 'selling his details including card &PIN' and he is adamant that he has not given his card to anyone else.
Incidentally, he lives on his own and is our only child, so the family member is not applicable.
As I said earlier, we are at a total loss and this whole escapade has seriously dented our faith in the banking /on line card system.
Thankyou for your considered comments.
Woodbutcher said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
Woodbutcher said:
...
Any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
You have come across one of the unwritten rules in bank fraud rules.Any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Basically, if the transaction is "chip and pin" (or 3d secure for online transactions) then they work on the assumption the fraud is the responsibility of the customer.
If it wasn't chip+pin, they would have immediately refunded your son (and then immediately after reimbursed themselves by extracting the money directly from the retailer's merchant account).
The police won't be interested - at the risk of sounding like I am telling a tall story, in my company we had a 'client' spend nearly £100k on a debit card, paid in 5 separate parts. Each part was fully 3d secure.
The criminal in that case had installed some key logging software onto the card holder's computer and had harvested all of their personal details, including banking credentials. Despite it being a very large fraud, the police were not interested.
In terms of what your son can do, any proper criminal who has gone to the effort to clone a card and find the valid chip+pin number is going to want to extract a lot more than a few hundred pounds. Particularly if it was done at a convenience store which will likely have cctv etc. Sorry to say but the most likely option is that he accidently gave control of the card to someone.
Does your son know anyone who lives in Nottingham? And does he still have the physical card?
Edited by EddieSteadyGo on Wednesday 9th February 23:00
This whole case is beyond us and there are several aspects that we find confusing and I agree with much of what your saying.
No, he does not know anyone in Nottingham and I believe he has now destroyed the card. He has never been to Nottingham once in his life, let alone on three separate occasions.
The card was used 3 times (twice in the same store), but on each occasion about 4 weeks apart.
One of the confusing aspects is that the day before the first transaction, he had £18,000 in the account to buy a new truck. To loose that amount would have been catastrophic to him.
A further unusual aspect is that about an hour after one of the transactions, he genuinely drew money out of his account at a local post office here in Durham. It is not possible to travel from Nottingham to Durham in an hour!
Our son lives on his own and tells us that he has never given his card or details to anyone else.
In conclusion, we are totally mystified but thanks for your obvious knowledge in this area.
If the bank is adamant, it's likely to be because the culprit was able to insert the correct PIN - that's why most people will say that it is going to be someone he knows. I know you won't believe this - and only the passage of time might reveal something/body unexpected !
Woodbutcher said:
A further unusual aspect is that about an hour after one of the transactions, he genuinely drew money out of his account at a local post office here in Durham. It is not possible to travel from Nottingham to Durham in an hour!
If that was a credit card transaction surely the bank's computer would have flagged that he can't be in 2 places at once and refused him cash.Seems with a debit card they don't care as it's his money not theirs?
wyson]asco said:
it's likely to be because the culprit was able to insert the correct PIN - that's why most people will say that it is going to be someone he knows. /quote]
Read the article I linked. Cloned Chip n Pin cards can be programmed to accept any pin.
I've seen these comments before.Read the article I linked. Cloned Chip n Pin cards can be programmed to accept any pin.
My comments stand.
Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff