Diversions due to wind?
Discussion
Who decides where an aircraft diverts to? Today there was a flight from EDI to LHR which ended up back in Scotland after a couple of go arounds, and one from Chicago to LHR which went to Geneva instead. Now, my geography isn't the best, but I have flown from London to Geneva quite a few times, and if I was wanting to be in London, then Geneva is more than a short train ride away.
If they decide it is too rough to land, why not try somewhere close but where wind speeds are lower. Surely you could have put down in Birmingham and then put customers on a train? Wind in the Midlands was considerably lower than London. Same with the Scotland flight - all that has happened is 2 hours in the air and some excitement for the passengers, only to end up back where they started. Much like Yorkshire Air
.
If they decide it is too rough to land, why not try somewhere close but where wind speeds are lower. Surely you could have put down in Birmingham and then put customers on a train? Wind in the Midlands was considerably lower than London. Same with the Scotland flight - all that has happened is 2 hours in the air and some excitement for the passengers, only to end up back where they started. Much like Yorkshire Air
. Some planes diverted from LHR to Manchester yesterday - but before too long Manchester was just as bad. They really need to get well away from the met conditions to have a clear run at landing. The reserve fuel can get quite low and planes are definitely coming down one way or another. It’s a massive pain for the crew and company once a planes in the wrong location so I’m sure it’s not a decision taken lightly.
To answer the actual question of “who” decides, the immediate decision to divert will be down to the aircraft Captain but even that will be based on a combination of non-flexible aircraft limitations (from the manufacturer), airfield meteorological and operating limitations (from the CAA, DfT etc) and company policy (from Richard Branson and the like).
Diverting due to weather is easy….
On 9/11 there were jets calling up their destinations on the US west coast only to be told “We’re closed…everywhere is closed” and then having to turn around and plod back across the Atlantic.
Diverting due to weather is easy….
On 9/11 there were jets calling up their destinations on the US west coast only to be told “We’re closed…everywhere is closed” and then having to turn around and plod back across the Atlantic.
All of the above. Captain with input from your company of you have time. Sometimes there's a good selection of possible alternative places in which case you can offer a list to your company and they can pick the best commercially.
Yesterday was a bit unusual, many places were not much better than the intended destination. I went up to Iceland, nearly all the Scottish airfields were due for heavy snow with a bit of a cross wind. Further South was v windy.
East Coast of US was always tricky with snow too. Often if one goes out then they all do. You'd maybe need to go as far as Washington (or further occasionally) if Boston gets closed. They'd all start closing.
Plus airports get full and don't accept further diversions unless an emergency. In which case you may be safely on the ground but no facilities to park/disembark.
Yesterday was a bit unusual, many places were not much better than the intended destination. I went up to Iceland, nearly all the Scottish airfields were due for heavy snow with a bit of a cross wind. Further South was v windy.
East Coast of US was always tricky with snow too. Often if one goes out then they all do. You'd maybe need to go as far as Washington (or further occasionally) if Boston gets closed. They'd all start closing.
Plus airports get full and don't accept further diversions unless an emergency. In which case you may be safely on the ground but no facilities to park/disembark.
The Captain decides where the aircraft goes. Assuming the diversion options were available and have capacity.
If I get to work and there’s weather like yesterday, I’d get a fuel plan with enough fuel to get to an alternate where it wasn’t forecast to be as windy and enough for a few approaches at the destination. Cost saving goes out the window on days like that. Another pilot might have a very different view of what was needed and the amounts of extra fuel carried would likely vary a bit.
As a crew, usually 2 or 3 pilots, I’d meet the other pilots before the flight either in the crew room at our home base or the hotel down route and ask them what they thought first and have a chat and then we’d decide how much we needed together so we’re all happy.
Then in flight if the weather was bad at the destination I’d consider (either by asking beforehand or calling up after the first go around on the satellite phone) where the company wanted the aircraft to go but if I thought my (and my crews) plan was better I’d do that and we’d be supported by the airline.
If it’s a unexpected diversion then the captain again makes the decision but will have varying qualities of resources to help them, depending on where they are in the world and who they work for.
If there’s an inflight medical emergency, most airlines are linked to a medical assistance provider who can give advice and suggest airports based on medical facilities.
How that would work for us is that the the crew would inform us there was a situation unfolding, we’d have a more detailed think about where we might go, if it got worse we’d call the medical advice company who are based in Atlanta USA. We’d do this using a satellite phone, so first we speak to an operator who we give the call sign to and they can see where we are on the map how long till we land and they can then see what medical equipment we have on board etc (as this differs on different aircraft and airlines) we give them a summary of the situation which we’ve pre done as it’s a standard format.
They then transfer us to a doctor who then talks us (and the crew dealing with it) through the situation and can offer diversion advice if necessary. Again though that’s based on medical facilities not weather or appropriateness of that airfield for us on the day.
Generally though over your airlines route structure, you ought to have a decent working knowledge of airports on the way and what they’re like for a diversion, that might include things like opening times, weather, what’s serviceable there, runway length, approach facilities, issues like terrain, political situation, medical facilities, hotel availability etc.
When it’s windy like yesterday pilots will all have a different perception of the event based on their own flying experiences of bad weather and time on that type of aircraft, time in command etc. maybe also at the moment you might have pilots returning to work who weren’t busy during the pandemic whilst other pilots might be arriving to the windy airport feeling far more current and having been doing more flying recently.
If I get to work and there’s weather like yesterday, I’d get a fuel plan with enough fuel to get to an alternate where it wasn’t forecast to be as windy and enough for a few approaches at the destination. Cost saving goes out the window on days like that. Another pilot might have a very different view of what was needed and the amounts of extra fuel carried would likely vary a bit.
As a crew, usually 2 or 3 pilots, I’d meet the other pilots before the flight either in the crew room at our home base or the hotel down route and ask them what they thought first and have a chat and then we’d decide how much we needed together so we’re all happy.
Then in flight if the weather was bad at the destination I’d consider (either by asking beforehand or calling up after the first go around on the satellite phone) where the company wanted the aircraft to go but if I thought my (and my crews) plan was better I’d do that and we’d be supported by the airline.
If it’s a unexpected diversion then the captain again makes the decision but will have varying qualities of resources to help them, depending on where they are in the world and who they work for.
If there’s an inflight medical emergency, most airlines are linked to a medical assistance provider who can give advice and suggest airports based on medical facilities.
How that would work for us is that the the crew would inform us there was a situation unfolding, we’d have a more detailed think about where we might go, if it got worse we’d call the medical advice company who are based in Atlanta USA. We’d do this using a satellite phone, so first we speak to an operator who we give the call sign to and they can see where we are on the map how long till we land and they can then see what medical equipment we have on board etc (as this differs on different aircraft and airlines) we give them a summary of the situation which we’ve pre done as it’s a standard format.
They then transfer us to a doctor who then talks us (and the crew dealing with it) through the situation and can offer diversion advice if necessary. Again though that’s based on medical facilities not weather or appropriateness of that airfield for us on the day.
Generally though over your airlines route structure, you ought to have a decent working knowledge of airports on the way and what they’re like for a diversion, that might include things like opening times, weather, what’s serviceable there, runway length, approach facilities, issues like terrain, political situation, medical facilities, hotel availability etc.
When it’s windy like yesterday pilots will all have a different perception of the event based on their own flying experiences of bad weather and time on that type of aircraft, time in command etc. maybe also at the moment you might have pilots returning to work who weren’t busy during the pandemic whilst other pilots might be arriving to the windy airport feeling far more current and having been doing more flying recently.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 19th February 07:48
Petrus1983 said:
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Wow - what a great insight. How common are medical emergencies? Do you ask if there’s a dr on board? Is there often a dr onboard if so.
There’s obviously different degrees of medical issues, I’d say I might get minor things like someone being on oxygen quite often but where we call the medical provider and met by an ambulance at the destination maybe 2 times a year. Wow - what a great insight. How common are medical emergencies? Do you ask if there’s a dr on board? Is there often a dr onboard if so.
Flights where I’ve actually had to divert due to a medical issue are rarer though and I’ve probably had that once every 10 years or so.
Having said that I did have a medical emergency a couple of weeks ago where an 11 month old child was having a reaction to something she’d eaten. The parents said she had medication but it was in the hold of the aircraft so not much use. We were about 40 minutes from landing so continuing to the destination was the best course of action.
We needed to speak to the medical provider to approve giving her piriton but they wouldn’t approve it due to her age, they did approve using an epipen if it deteriorated. The situation did deteriorate and the cabin crew made an announcement asking for a doctor , who I think administered the epipen.
We declared an emergency and landed at the destination having been told everything was arranged by air traffic control but unfortunately after we vacated the runway it turned out nothing had been arranged so we had to escalate the situation to get a stand to park on and ambulance asap.
Then it can become messy with having to keep passengers sitting whilst the medical people get on and get to the person needing help etc and all sorts of things can happen that need sorting out.
In this case the child was ok but I found myself downstairs at the ambulance speaking to the child’s dad as only he and his child were allowed to go to hospital due to covid rules in that country so the mum and other child were going to go to their hotel, there’s then all sorts of questions about what happens with their bags, how does the dad get from the hospital to his hotel etc.
Added to this, the mum went back on the aircraft to go to the toilet leaving the dad with the sick 11 month old and their other toddler.
Then the toddler ran off from outside the ambulance shouting heading under the aircraft. Obviously this isn’t an appropriate place for a toddler, so I had to run after him and catch him which made him even more hysterical.
Then anyone watching would have been given the entertaining display of me the captain in my uniform and wearing a covid mask chasing a toddler under the aircraft which is connected to ground power, water, being refuelled etc whilst the local refueller appeared and tried to coral him from the other side.
The dad didn’t really help so we had to catch his child before he got hurt or caused some other issue.
Some of the crew came downstairs and found the whole thing highly amusing, obviously just watching and laughing rather than actually helping catch kids like some modern aeronautical chitty chitty bang bang child catching drama.
Crossflow Kid said:
El Stovey said:
Amusing civil aviation Chitty Chitty Bang Bang-esque anecdote
Great story.Genuinely chuckled here, visualising Operation Toddler Roundup on the ramp, along with the very evident “FFS” aimed at the rest of the onlooking crew.
so me and the refueller were trying to round him up by waving our arms like we were herding geese or something, at first. Then he started running around faster and getting hysterical, so I just had to get hold of him and pick him up.
El stovey said:
Crossflow Kid said:
El Stovey said:
Amusing civil aviation Chitty Chitty Bang Bang-esque anecdote
Great story.Genuinely chuckled here, visualising Operation Toddler Roundup on the ramp, along with the very evident “FFS” aimed at the rest of the onlooking crew.
so me and the refueller were trying to round him up by waving our arms like we were herding geese or something, at first. Then he started running around faster and getting hysterical, so I just had to get hold of him and pick him up.
On a more serious note, I feel your pain regards ambulance crew gaining access.
Recently did a job on a BA jet that had landed at LHR with a passenger allegedly experiencing a seizure.
Potentially life-threatening condition and the biggest challenge was elbowing our way past all the impatient w
kers wanting to get off first and have the longest wait at the baggage carousel.El stovey said:
The situation did deteriorate and the cabin crew made an announcement asking for a doctor , who I think administered the epipen.
Recall seeing a program many years ago - I think a general "fly on the wall" type of thing about airlines - and I was quite surprised that when this happens the doctor sends a hefty invoice to the airline, and the drill is they pay it without question.Sheepshanks said:
El stovey said:
The situation did deteriorate and the cabin crew made an announcement asking for a doctor , who I think administered the epipen.
Recall seeing a program many years ago - I think a general "fly on the wall" type of thing about airlines - and I was quite surprised that when this happens the doctor sends a hefty invoice to the airline, and the drill is they pay it without question.Petrus1983 said:
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Wow - what a great insight. How common are medical emergencies? Do you ask if there’s a dr on board? Is there often a dr onboard if so.
I got papped diverting in to the Azores with a medical emergency. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk-50GAMPd8Wow - what a great insight. How common are medical emergencies? Do you ask if there’s a dr on board? Is there often a dr onboard if so.
Was a top job all round as we conferenced called across the Atlantic between Operations in London, on-call Doctors in the USA, as well as two paramedics on board and well-trained cabin crew.
Found out months later through everyone's actions and decisions, the individuals life was saved. From a Pilot's perspective, it was about collecting and supplying Operations with options as to where we were, where we could go, and how long it would take to get there. Collectively the decision was made to divert - after which, it's just a normal approach and landing. In this example, we were overweight, so we had to dump fuel to our maximum landing weight, but we did that in the descent in to the Azores.
On average, medical emergencies / diversions, average around one a month (pre-covid!)
El stovey said:
Cost saving goes out the window on days like that.
Apologies for O/T but do pilots get "scored" and/or get bonuses based on how much fuel they use/how much they save the company?I remember reading a few years ago about Ryanair planes calling fuel emergencies because they apparently weren't carrying enough fuel
Ryanair article
5150 that’s very cool.
You’ve obviously shown the airline - but is preservation of life genuinely the only factor - or are there account managers in the background too pushing abacus beads around? I can’t imagine landing at an unknown airport, dumping fuel and everything else comes in cheaply.
You’ve obviously shown the airline - but is preservation of life genuinely the only factor - or are there account managers in the background too pushing abacus beads around? I can’t imagine landing at an unknown airport, dumping fuel and everything else comes in cheaply.
Countdown said:
El stovey said:
Cost saving goes out the window on days like that.
Apologies for O/T but do pilots get "scored" and/or get bonuses based on how much fuel they use/how much they save the company?I remember reading a few years ago about Ryanair planes calling fuel emergencies because they apparently weren't carrying enough fuel
Ryanair article
We definitely don’t get rated or bonuses etc regarding fuel.
You likely have situations where different airlines will have different fuel policies but they still have to satisfy the regulator.
I think Ryanair unfairly come under scrutiny regarding fuel tbh by the media sometimes. I work with loads of ex ryanair pilots and none have ever said they were pressurised unduly about fuel.
No airline wants their crew carrying extra fuel without good reason though. Everything is about saving fuel and to do that pilots have to buy into the fuel policy the airline has and trust all the fuel planning etc we’re given to work with.
If you had to divert due to a sick passenger and had to jettison fuel for instance I don’t think many airlines would be criticising you.
Petrus1983 said:
5150 that’s very cool.
You’ve obviously shown the airline - but is preservation of life genuinely the only factor - or are there account managers in the background too pushing abacus beads around? I can’t imagine landing at an unknown airport, dumping fuel and everything else comes in cheaply.
It's none of the beancounters business really as to real-time decision making on diversions. We do have restrictions on particular airports for medical diversions or security issues, but these are your Kabul's and Baghdad's, as an example - fairly obvious why we wouldn't go in there with a medical. You’ve obviously shown the airline - but is preservation of life genuinely the only factor - or are there account managers in the background too pushing abacus beads around? I can’t imagine landing at an unknown airport, dumping fuel and everything else comes in cheaply.
Ultimately, Pilot's job is the safe operation of the aircraft and everyone in it. We wouldn't take unnecessary risks to preserve one life - that's what everyone involved in the process gets paid for. If we can make a safe diversion to a suitable airport, then we'll prioritise the operation for the medical attention required for that person, of course, but not place the safety of everyone else in jeopardy (in this case 454 other passengers plus crew), or think no, as it's too costly!
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