Am I underpaid compared to my team?
Discussion
Hi all. I lead a team of presales/technical sales/designer types. We are the primary contact for the company's biggest customers, and we do a lot of the softer selling.
We were bought out last year; the new company are a genuinely nice bunch. However, I'm now involved in pay reviews, and that's brought up some interesting comparisons.
Over the last five years I've consistently done the most quotes and brought in the most orders (of my team - this is not to diminish the excellent work that the account managers do). I also account manage our single biggest customer, build a lot of the tools we use to design and quote with, have a daily management call, weekly group call, monthly forecast call, do recruitment, am general point of technical reference for the whole company, and so on.
I found out last week that one of my team, who brings in just under half the value of orders I do, is paid 5% more than me. Another is paid 91% of what I am, and brings in just over a third of what I do. Neither does any of the extras I do - they see customers, design, and quote. That's it.
I can't help but feel that I should be out earning anyone who brings less in and has fewer responsibilities, so (a) is that unreasonable, and (b) how do I go about getting an appropriately enormous pay rise?
Ta in advance.
We were bought out last year; the new company are a genuinely nice bunch. However, I'm now involved in pay reviews, and that's brought up some interesting comparisons.
Over the last five years I've consistently done the most quotes and brought in the most orders (of my team - this is not to diminish the excellent work that the account managers do). I also account manage our single biggest customer, build a lot of the tools we use to design and quote with, have a daily management call, weekly group call, monthly forecast call, do recruitment, am general point of technical reference for the whole company, and so on.
I found out last week that one of my team, who brings in just under half the value of orders I do, is paid 5% more than me. Another is paid 91% of what I am, and brings in just over a third of what I do. Neither does any of the extras I do - they see customers, design, and quote. That's it.
I can't help but feel that I should be out earning anyone who brings less in and has fewer responsibilities, so (a) is that unreasonable, and (b) how do I go about getting an appropriately enormous pay rise?
Ta in advance.
Edited by Sporky on Sunday 20th February 20:50
I'm in at similar boat, sat down with my boss last week & told him straight! Stayed very professional, reminded him of 'my value' and summarised that I know their are channels for pay adjustment in the business. He agreed, took it up with his boss... Now just waiting on CEO to sign it off, or not.
Fwiw... Just make sure you detail, with evidence, why you you desevre an adjustment & make notes/rehearse it in advance!
Companies hasn't been on the strongest footing for a while so probably 50/50, but if you don't ask you don't get!
Edit: glassdoors is a good website to guide you!
Fwiw... Just make sure you detail, with evidence, why you you desevre an adjustment & make notes/rehearse it in advance!
Companies hasn't been on the strongest footing for a while so probably 50/50, but if you don't ask you don't get!
Edit: glassdoors is a good website to guide you!
Edited by Andeh1 on Sunday 20th February 20:56
Sounds interesting.
For context what kind of business are you working in?
What is the value (p&l) to the company for each individual ‘client’ you are converting?
Are we talking £100 a client or £10,000 - 100,000 a client?
Clearly low value conversions would lead to a closer or similar wage between staff.
Who is finding the clients? Are you cold prospecting, or could anyone pick up the enquiries?
In my experience, it’s not always a good idea to know what colleagues get paid.
Any idea what the industry norm is wage wise, and before you found out what everyone else made, were you happy?
For context what kind of business are you working in?
What is the value (p&l) to the company for each individual ‘client’ you are converting?
Are we talking £100 a client or £10,000 - 100,000 a client?
Clearly low value conversions would lead to a closer or similar wage between staff.
Who is finding the clients? Are you cold prospecting, or could anyone pick up the enquiries?
In my experience, it’s not always a good idea to know what colleagues get paid.
Any idea what the industry norm is wage wise, and before you found out what everyone else made, were you happy?
2 GKC said:
How did you find out what they earn?
I'm now involved in pay reviews, with my boss. The company that bought us has a formal pay review process, we (previously) did not. One of my team turned out to be rather underpaid, so he's getting 11% this year, and probably the same next. There's a new starter who'll be getting a fairly chunky rise next round if he carries on as well as he's started.
Edited by Sporky on Sunday 20th February 20:59
Mankers said:
Sounds interesting.
For context what kind of business are you working in?
What is the value (p&l) to the company for each individual ‘client’ you are converting?
Are we talking £100 a client or £10,000 - 100,000 a client?
Clearly low value conversions would lead to a closer or similar wage between staff.
Who is finding the clients? Are you cold prospecting, or could anyone pick up the enquiries?
In my experience, it’s not always a good idea to know what colleagues get paid.
Any idea what the industry norm is wage wise, and before you found out what everyone else made, were you happy?
Excellent questions. I don't want to be too specific but we are a technology integrator. Not IT, but related.For context what kind of business are you working in?
What is the value (p&l) to the company for each individual ‘client’ you are converting?
Are we talking £100 a client or £10,000 - 100,000 a client?
Clearly low value conversions would lead to a closer or similar wage between staff.
Who is finding the clients? Are you cold prospecting, or could anyone pick up the enquiries?
In my experience, it’s not always a good idea to know what colleagues get paid.
Any idea what the industry norm is wage wise, and before you found out what everyone else made, were you happy?
Last year I did 300 quotes - each requiring design, drawings, cost sheet, and functional spec, total value £10.5M. That turned into a bit over £5.6M in orders, about 18% margin. Average quote value (for all of us) is around £25-30k, projects generally go up to £1M.
Across the company about 70% of orders come from existing customers; I take on a higher proportion of speculative/new business stuff, maybe 50%. The "proper" sales team do all the cold calling, and all the finding new prospects. Once something is qualified by them it's my team that takes over, unless it needs hard closing - usually we can demonstrate that we can solve their problem and the order comes in, but I don't want to diminish the sales team's efforts, we'd be stuffed without them.
I absolutely agree that knowing one's colleagues' pay is problematic. It's an odd position being team lead and still doing the same work as the team. Before the purchase I was on the management board (not a director - just head of design). In the new company I'm part of the senior management team.
Before I knew I was happy with my pay (or, perhaps, a bit embarrassed about it - it isn't insignificant), but I was unhappy about the proportion of the work I was doing compared to the others - last year I did over 40% of the quotes. I don't think they're slacking, but I do get a lot more done. All the numbers come straight off our quote book so they are accurate.
Ok, seems it a fairness / satisfaction question.
At what point in the year can you address this with those that make the decisions? These conversations are typically cyclical. Eg my convo is in Sept for compensation in March. Any fair manager will get your point and address it, if they value you.
I’m in sales, but investment management. I would expect 10-20% of my new business P&L (for that year) as a bonus. I generate at least 80% of these through my network and contacts ( very different to calls that come to the desk). And then total package around 10% of my books annual P&L. There will be finesse around external factors, market conditions, and wider group performance of course. I have no idea what similar colleagues make, hope it stays that way!
At what point in the year can you address this with those that make the decisions? These conversations are typically cyclical. Eg my convo is in Sept for compensation in March. Any fair manager will get your point and address it, if they value you.
I’m in sales, but investment management. I would expect 10-20% of my new business P&L (for that year) as a bonus. I generate at least 80% of these through my network and contacts ( very different to calls that come to the desk). And then total package around 10% of my books annual P&L. There will be finesse around external factors, market conditions, and wider group performance of course. I have no idea what similar colleagues make, hope it stays that way!
Mankers said:
Ok, seems it a fairness / satisfaction question.
I think you're right. I like my job, I like my boss, I like my team (when they're not whining about their pitiful workload 
), but it doesn't feel very fair that someone is paid more than me, and another is paid nearly as much, for doing so much less of the same job.Pay reviews are due by the end of the month. My boss is pretty approachable.
I think the numbers matter a bit here - the difference between 95 and a 100 is not the same as 20 and 25 …
In tech, it’s not unusual for members of a team to be paid more than the boss of a team and it doesn’t always follow that pay is a function of your perception of your relative output.
As you’ve said, following mergers, acquisitions etc there will be a whole load of things to “fix” and this takes time. They generally aren’t righted overnight.
In the larger firm , there will be pay bands which presumably you all correctly fall into and a structure for rises to make adjustments. Some places share the structure and bands, others hide it. I’d start by trying to find this information out as it will help with your case down the line
In tech, it’s not unusual for members of a team to be paid more than the boss of a team and it doesn’t always follow that pay is a function of your perception of your relative output.
As you’ve said, following mergers, acquisitions etc there will be a whole load of things to “fix” and this takes time. They generally aren’t righted overnight.
In the larger firm , there will be pay bands which presumably you all correctly fall into and a structure for rises to make adjustments. Some places share the structure and bands, others hide it. I’d start by trying to find this information out as it will help with your case down the line
fat80b said:
In tech, it’s not unusual for members of a team to be paid more than the boss of a team and it doesn’t always follow that pay is a function of your perception of your relative output.
I know that's often the case where the boss is a manager and the team are specialists, but I do the same job as my team, plus the leadership stuff on top, and I do measurably more of the base job than any of them. I'm also the most qualified in terms of degree, professional certification, and manufacturer accreditations. I'm not sitting in a corner office wondering how soon I can go and play golf while they do all the design and quoting work (but I'm not saying you said I was).
Thanks all - looks like it's time to put on my big-boy pants and get negotiating.
Sporky said:
Mankers said:
Sounds interesting.
For context what kind of business are you working in?
What is the value (p&l) to the company for each individual ‘client’ you are converting?
Are we talking £100 a client or £10,000 - 100,000 a client?
Clearly low value conversions would lead to a closer or similar wage between staff.
Who is finding the clients? Are you cold prospecting, or could anyone pick up the enquiries?
In my experience, it’s not always a good idea to know what colleagues get paid.
Any idea what the industry norm is wage wise, and before you found out what everyone else made, were you happy?
Excellent questions. I don't want to be too specific but we are a technology integrator. Not IT, but related.For context what kind of business are you working in?
What is the value (p&l) to the company for each individual ‘client’ you are converting?
Are we talking £100 a client or £10,000 - 100,000 a client?
Clearly low value conversions would lead to a closer or similar wage between staff.
Who is finding the clients? Are you cold prospecting, or could anyone pick up the enquiries?
In my experience, it’s not always a good idea to know what colleagues get paid.
Any idea what the industry norm is wage wise, and before you found out what everyone else made, were you happy?
Last year I did 300 quotes - each requiring design, drawings, cost sheet, and functional spec, total value £10.5M. That turned into a bit over £5.6M in orders, about 18% margin. Average quote value (for all of us) is around £25-30k, projects generally go up to £1M.
Across the company about 70% of orders come from existing customers; I take on a higher proportion of speculative/new business stuff, maybe 50%. The "proper" sales team do all the cold calling, and all the finding new prospects. Once something is qualified by them it's my team that takes over, unless it needs hard closing - usually we can demonstrate that we can solve their problem and the order comes in, but I don't want to diminish the sales team's efforts, we'd be stuffed without them.
I absolutely agree that knowing one's colleagues' pay is problematic. It's an odd position being team lead and still doing the same work as the team. Before the purchase I was on the management board (not a director - just head of design). In the new company I'm part of the senior management team.
Before I knew I was happy with my pay (or, perhaps, a bit embarrassed about it - it isn't insignificant), but I was unhappy about the proportion of the work I was doing compared to the others - last year I did over 40% of the quotes. I don't think they're slacking, but I do get a lot more done. All the numbers come straight off our quote book so they are accurate.
It does sound like you are underpaid relative to your team, but to a certain extent you should try to ignore that..... The only thing that really matters is what you are paid relative to the market for your role, nothing to do with your teams pay.
Find out your market worth and use that to negotiate with. Your rationale for more money should (gently) be a threat that you know your market value and if you're not fairly rewarded (especially given your performance in role), that you'll be looking for external opportunities, but that you love the job here, have done x y & z and are excited for the future and want to do more, but have a duty of care to yourself and your family to be rewarded at fair market rate for your performance.
Bleating that other people in the team negotiated better than you may get you something, but if you are all paid 1.5x market rates, then your company may not see need to raise your salary at all and you'll just be miserable that you feel undervalued, but can't leave to go anywhere else without taking a pay cut.
Market rate is really 90% of your argument. 10%could be the team thing. Do not go into a meeting relying on the 10% "not fair" argument, it's not the optimal strategy IMO.
HTH
Find out your market worth and use that to negotiate with. Your rationale for more money should (gently) be a threat that you know your market value and if you're not fairly rewarded (especially given your performance in role), that you'll be looking for external opportunities, but that you love the job here, have done x y & z and are excited for the future and want to do more, but have a duty of care to yourself and your family to be rewarded at fair market rate for your performance.
Bleating that other people in the team negotiated better than you may get you something, but if you are all paid 1.5x market rates, then your company may not see need to raise your salary at all and you'll just be miserable that you feel undervalued, but can't leave to go anywhere else without taking a pay cut.
Market rate is really 90% of your argument. 10%could be the team thing. Do not go into a meeting relying on the 10% "not fair" argument, it's not the optimal strategy IMO.
HTH
Douglas Quaid said:
You were embarrassed by your pay?
If I look at it as a number, it's a fairly big one. However, if I look at it as a proportion of what I bring in, it's a fairly small one.stuthe
said:
said: It does sound like you are underpaid relative to your team, but to a certain extent you should try to ignore that..... The only thing that really matters is what you are paid relative to the market for your role, nothing to do with your teams pay.
That's a good point. It's not a huge industry, and there isn't much information about what someone in my position would earn elsewhere. I did just have a chat with a friendly recruiter though, who suggested the market rate is 10-20% more than what I'm on just for the technical sales bit, and the management stuff should be on top of that.All very helpful - thanks.
I don't know if that's sarcasm or not, sorry. I know a lot of what I've posted probably sounds big-headed, but the numbers are generally right (except that my quotes in 2021 lead to £6.3M of orders, got that bit wrong - the percentages are ok).
I don't think I'm irreplaceable and I'm unconvinced about going in with a full-on money-or-I-quit approach, but I do seem to be paid below market rate.
I don't think I'm irreplaceable and I'm unconvinced about going in with a full-on money-or-I-quit approach, but I do seem to be paid below market rate.
It’s definitely worth mentioning internally, but an ultimatum is not usually a good idea unless you have something concrete (real offer from a competitor for a role).
Without knowing the specifics, and not to cause offence, finding new business(prospecting) and winning (pitching) is where the real money gets paid. Eg I can find new clients through my own contact network, persuade them to invest, but pass them over to a colleague to sign them up, work on fees etc. They would get a much smaller ‘slice of the pie’ as if I did t find the clients, there would be no new business to get over the line in the first place!
Clearly I don’t know your business or how involved ‘quoting’ for business is, or how the business values this work. Could anyone in the team do it?
If it is a highly skilled role, that not all team members can do to complete the transactions, then you have a stronger case for more pay…ie if you leave they convert less business, take on less clients and make less profit….
Without knowing the specifics, and not to cause offence, finding new business(prospecting) and winning (pitching) is where the real money gets paid. Eg I can find new clients through my own contact network, persuade them to invest, but pass them over to a colleague to sign them up, work on fees etc. They would get a much smaller ‘slice of the pie’ as if I did t find the clients, there would be no new business to get over the line in the first place!
Clearly I don’t know your business or how involved ‘quoting’ for business is, or how the business values this work. Could anyone in the team do it?
If it is a highly skilled role, that not all team members can do to complete the transactions, then you have a stronger case for more pay…ie if you leave they convert less business, take on less clients and make less profit….
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