Speedlimit signage technicalities
Discussion
I've noticed some pretty poorly maintained speed signs recently, and this set me wondering about enforcability where this occurs. This might take someone with good working knowledge of the regs to answer (DVD where are you?!)
1. Is the entire zone unenforceable if a single sign is missing / out of place.
- Is this just in the direction of travel?
- Only unenforceable in the area of the sign - ie enforceable again once repeaters are regular and in place, or only after start of a new limit signs (big, both sides of carriageway)?
2. What is the minimum distance for repeaters? Isn't it something quite small like 200yrds?
3. Are streetlights enough, if there is no initial sign (big, both sides of carirageway) - ie are streetlights good enough for a start of limit, or are they just repeaters?
Do start signs need to be both sides of carriageway? What if a single one is damaged / turned / got a bush growing over it?
1. Is the entire zone unenforceable if a single sign is missing / out of place.
- Is this just in the direction of travel?
- Only unenforceable in the area of the sign - ie enforceable again once repeaters are regular and in place, or only after start of a new limit signs (big, both sides of carriageway)?
2. What is the minimum distance for repeaters? Isn't it something quite small like 200yrds?
3. Are streetlights enough, if there is no initial sign (big, both sides of carirageway) - ie are streetlights good enough for a start of limit, or are they just repeaters?
Do start signs need to be both sides of carriageway? What if a single one is damaged / turned / got a bush growing over it?
...you rang 7db?
Save myself a whole load of typing, proof reading, corrections etc. I can but direct to this site
http://tinyurl.com/79u4g
Click on speed limits left blue box
Scroll down to Speed limits signing requirements.
Goes through the requirements with a fine tooth comb and I recommend and should answer all your queries.
DVD
Save myself a whole load of typing, proof reading, corrections etc. I can but direct to this site
http://tinyurl.com/79u4g
Click on speed limits left blue box
Scroll down to Speed limits signing requirements.
Goes through the requirements with a fine tooth comb and I recommend and should answer all your queries.
DVD
You are good!
That's answered most questions --
- Yes, in direction of travel only.
- No, it's all stuffed if one sign is wrong
- There is no legal minimum distance - must be "regular", but there are guidelines as to distances which vary by speed.
- Two signs are needed - except where turning from major to minor, when one will do on left within 20yrds, and minor to major with increasing limit, with repeater within 100yrds. Illumination of the sign is sometimes necessary for the limit to be valid.
However, on the issue of 30 limits on restricted roads, I'm not quite clear -- I think that they don't need any sign to start the limit (harsh, or what?), just a system of street-lighting less than 183m apart (and over 13ft tall). Or indeed, just an order to make it a restricted road, and then no signage is required at all. Very odd.
That's answered most questions --
- Yes, in direction of travel only.
- No, it's all stuffed if one sign is wrong
- There is no legal minimum distance - must be "regular", but there are guidelines as to distances which vary by speed.
- Two signs are needed - except where turning from major to minor, when one will do on left within 20yrds, and minor to major with increasing limit, with repeater within 100yrds. Illumination of the sign is sometimes necessary for the limit to be valid.
However, on the issue of 30 limits on restricted roads, I'm not quite clear -- I think that they don't need any sign to start the limit (harsh, or what?), just a system of street-lighting less than 183m apart (and over 13ft tall). Or indeed, just an order to make it a restricted road, and then no signage is required at all. Very odd.
7db said:
However, on the issue of 30 limits on restricted roads, I'm not quite clear -- I think that they don't need any sign to start the limit (harsh, or what?), just a system of street-lighting less than 183m apart (and over 13ft tall). Or indeed, just an order to make it a restricted road, and then no signage is required at all. Very odd.
Presence of street lighting less than 200 yards apart (or metric equivilant) then its is 30 and technically hasn't to be signed as it is a "restricted road". I think you will find that LA in fact do sign. If it isn't a 30 then an Order will have to have been made and repeat restriction signs erected at intervals (40,50 etc)or if derestricted then NSL signs at intervals.
Driving in a strange area with street lights and not sure what the limit is - keep it down to 30 until you see repeaters to the contrary.
DVD
(You having a lie in this am Streaky?)
Dwight VanDriver said:
However, on the issue of 30 limits on restricted roads, I'm not quite clear -- I think that they don't need any sign to start the limit (harsh, or what?), just a system of street-lighting less than 183m apart (and over 13ft tall). Or indeed, just an order to make it a restricted road, and then no signage is required at all. Very odd.
Presence of street lighting less than 200 yards apart (or metric equivilant) then its is 30 and technically hasn't to be signed as it is a "restricted road". I think you will find that LA in fact do sign. If it isn't a 30 then an Order will have to have been made and repeat restriction signs erected at intervals (40,50 etc)or if derestricted then NSL signs at intervals.
Driving in a strange area with street lights and not sure what the limit is - keep it down to 30 until you see repeaters to the contrary.
DVD
(You having a lie in this am Streaky?)
Dons anorak.......
DVD heart sinks.....
Following on from the above always thought it is a bit of a moot point what is the situation as follows. Quite a few in this part of rural exile from God's Own County.
NSL SC/DC, unlit hence no repeaters. (usually DC though)
Junction with another NSL DC/SC usually at a roundabout, but system of street lighting on the roundabout and on approach/departure each road sometimes for a few hundred yards in all directions. (Metric woss this metric?)
No repeaters anywhere.
What would you think the limit is?
Ackshually in practice the infernal ill-begotten council are getting round it by reducing a lot of the NSL to 50 or less, but that really is another story.
So from all that do the signs indicating the start of a limit have to be at the same point on each side of the road, or can one be 10 or 20 or more foot in front of the other?
Just seen this somewhere, can;t recall where at the monent and wondered where the actual starting point of the limit is.
Just seen this somewhere, can;t recall where at the monent and wondered where the actual starting point of the limit is.
Well FiF allus thowt thar wus a fast bugger. Dustah tek rundaboots at 60 or 70?
RTRA 82(1) .. a restricted road (automatic 30) if there is provided on it a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps place not more than 200 yards apart....
so I presume technically it is down to thirty unless they make an ORDER derestricting - in which case there should be NSL repeaters. Problem is- is there sufficient length for repeaters? Them that be may consider that anybody negotiating the roundabout their speed will be down in the 30 range so no problem.
As far as I am aware Chris then signs should be opposite each other at the starting point of the limit as outlined in the Order. Would guess that a Court would accept a bit of leeway of a yard or so, but no more.
DVD
RTRA 82(1) .. a restricted road (automatic 30) if there is provided on it a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps place not more than 200 yards apart....
so I presume technically it is down to thirty unless they make an ORDER derestricting - in which case there should be NSL repeaters. Problem is- is there sufficient length for repeaters? Them that be may consider that anybody negotiating the roundabout their speed will be down in the 30 range so no problem.
As far as I am aware Chris then signs should be opposite each other at the starting point of the limit as outlined in the Order. Would guess that a Court would accept a bit of leeway of a yard or so, but no more.
DVD
Good question, FiF!
Since there is no way to know if a road is restricted or not (since orders can be made either to derestrict a lit road, or restrict an unlit road), and there is no requirement to sign a lit restricted road, as a driver it is impossible to establish the fact of the limit at that junction, and no defence if you get it wrong (in one direction). Unfair or what.
From an enforcement point of view -- assume that driving too quick onto roundabout is better dealt with by a DWDCA approach if appropriate, and left alone if not. And straight forward safe excess speed is best picked up on the straight section of the carriageway where speed measurement is easier, and the subject will be travelling faster.
Since there is no way to know if a road is restricted or not (since orders can be made either to derestrict a lit road, or restrict an unlit road), and there is no requirement to sign a lit restricted road, as a driver it is impossible to establish the fact of the limit at that junction, and no defence if you get it wrong (in one direction). Unfair or what.
From an enforcement point of view -- assume that driving too quick onto roundabout is better dealt with by a DWDCA approach if appropriate, and left alone if not. And straight forward safe excess speed is best picked up on the straight section of the carriageway where speed measurement is easier, and the subject will be travelling faster.
If there is an order making the lit area derestricted, so that NSL applies across the whole area, assuming that the arms of the junction are all DC (although shouldn't matter), is the limit 60 or 70 on the roundabout itself (for those of us driving cars that can achieve 70 on roundabouts...!)
(the two flows or traffic are separated by a physical barrier of the roundabout, so is a roundabout a DC?)
(the two flows or traffic are separated by a physical barrier of the roundabout, so is a roundabout a DC?)
7db said:
(the two flows or traffic are separated by a physical barrier of the roundabout, so is a roundabout a DC?)
The corollary of that being is the section of a DC where a cross over junction exists a SC? This Heisenberg chappie wasn't a legal beagle by any chance?
I accept my post above was somewhat t-i-c. However it was prompted by the good advice that if you've temporarily lost track of the limit ups/downs and there a system of street lighting is in place then sticking to 30 is not a bad idea until bearings re-established.
The thing that Heisenberg had going for him is that he proved that they couldn't measure how fast you were going as well as where you were.
Must have been a defence lawyer.
I thought the general rule that was being pushed by the current speed enforcement administration was that if you are a bit lost as to the limit, and you're in an unfamilar streetlit area, you should check all bushes, bridges and go as fast as you like, dropping anchors with the rest of the traffic just before a huge yellow box that's been in view for the last mile...
Must have been a defence lawyer.
I thought the general rule that was being pushed by the current speed enforcement administration was that if you are a bit lost as to the limit, and you're in an unfamilar streetlit area, you should check all bushes, bridges and go as fast as you like, dropping anchors with the rest of the traffic just before a huge yellow box that's been in view for the last mile...
7db said:
I thought the general rule that was being pushed by the current speed enforcement administration was that if you are a bit lost as to the limit, and you're in an unfamilar streetlit area, you should check all bushes, bridges and go as fast as you like, dropping anchors with the rest of the traffic just before a huge yellow box that's been in view for the last mile...
Blood and stomach pills, so I've been doing it wrong all these years, looking for round bits of painted aluminium, and checking entrance to side roads to see if there is a 30 limit there so I must be at least in a 40.
Now then DVD, sithee, tha knows me better than that!
Any road up, we're in your neck o't woods next 2/3 days. Keep a weather eye open, be sure to chuck it down.
>>>>>Any road up, we're in your neck o't woods next 2/3 days. Keep a weather eye open, be sure to chuck it down.<<<<<<
According to my lumbago, seaweed and pine cones next Thursday and Sunday showers, Friday and Saturday - clear. (Darlo area.)
Don't be fooled by lack of cameras N Y and Co Dur, they have been very active with the mobiles.
DVD
According to my lumbago, seaweed and pine cones next Thursday and Sunday showers, Friday and Saturday - clear. (Darlo area.)
Don't be fooled by lack of cameras N Y and Co Dur, they have been very active with the mobiles.
DVD
- Streakywww.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_504746.hcsp
It basically says that while there are guidelines, that is all they are. "Regualar intervals" in effect means nothing.
The guidelines also recommend that there are no repeaters in 20 mph limits, ever.
Repeaters in 30 mph limits are banned.
There are no such restrictions on speed camera signs, but in a 30 mph limit they cannot be accompanied by a reminder of the limit.
I don't know if too many dangerous drivers claimed that they had not seen the repeaters, but if the councils wanted us to slow down, why don't they maintain the signs rather than changing the rules?
The whole system is designed to confuse drivers. The people who set the rules and maintain the signs have no financial interest in making them work by actually informing the drivers.
It basically says that while there are guidelines, that is all they are. "Regualar intervals" in effect means nothing.
The guidelines also recommend that there are no repeaters in 20 mph limits, ever.
Repeaters in 30 mph limits are banned.
There are no such restrictions on speed camera signs, but in a 30 mph limit they cannot be accompanied by a reminder of the limit.
I don't know if too many dangerous drivers claimed that they had not seen the repeaters, but if the councils wanted us to slow down, why don't they maintain the signs rather than changing the rules?
The whole system is designed to confuse drivers. The people who set the rules and maintain the signs have no financial interest in making them work by actually informing the drivers.
malin said:
The whole system is designed to confuse drivers. The people who set the rules and maintain the signs have no financial interest in making them work by actually informing the drivers.
I don't believe that is true for a minute.
Incorrect signage is an immediate let-out for speeding offences -- something which is built in to the statute.
RTA 1988 said:
Where no system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart is provided on a road, but a limit of speed is to be observed on the road, a person shall not be convicted of driving a motor vehicle on the road at a speed exceeding the limit unless the limit is indicated by means of such traffic signs as are mentioned in subsection (1) or subsection (2) above.
And a big number with a red circle round it is hardly confusing.
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