Help! Gifted car being “stolen”
Discussion
My girlfriend lives in the UK and recently had her parents to stay. Her father bought her a car for a significant birthday, 3 years ago. The V5 is in her name and she has done 7,500 miles in it.
Her father came to stay and, disapproving of a recent job change, has taken the car from her garage, “ sold it to a mate” and flown back to where he lives.
I told her to report it as stolen and the Police have said as he bought it originally, it belongs to him.
(I have tried to counsel a sensible reconciliation, but the man is angry and toxic).
Is that right? Does it not belong to her?
It has a tracker so she knows where it is, but the Police seem uninterested. She has contacted the man who she suspected had it due to the address, a friend of the father, to state her case but he claims it is now his.
I would appreciate a legal opinion.
Thank you
Her father came to stay and, disapproving of a recent job change, has taken the car from her garage, “ sold it to a mate” and flown back to where he lives.
I told her to report it as stolen and the Police have said as he bought it originally, it belongs to him.
(I have tried to counsel a sensible reconciliation, but the man is angry and toxic).
Is that right? Does it not belong to her?
It has a tracker so she knows where it is, but the Police seem uninterested. She has contacted the man who she suspected had it due to the address, a friend of the father, to state her case but he claims it is now his.
I would appreciate a legal opinion.
Thank you
Edited by WTFWT on Wednesday 23 February 19:01
WTFWT said:
My girlfriend lives in the UK and recently had her parents to stay. Her father bought her a car for a significant birthday, 3 years ago. The V5 is in her name and she has done 7,500 miles in it.
Her father came to stay and, disapproving of a recent job change, has taken the car from her garage, “ sold it to a mate” and flown back to where he lives.
I told her to report it as stolen and the Police have said as he bought it originally, it belongs to him.
(I have tried to counsel a sensible reconciliation, but the man is angry and toxic).
Is that right? Does it not belong to her?
It has a tracker so she knows where it is, but the Police seem uninterested. She has contacted the man who she suspected had it due to the address, a friend of the father, to state her case but he claims it is now his.
I would appreciate a legal opinion.
Thank you
If he bought it, it's his. The V5 doesn't have anything to do with ownership at all.Her father came to stay and, disapproving of a recent job change, has taken the car from her garage, “ sold it to a mate” and flown back to where he lives.
I told her to report it as stolen and the Police have said as he bought it originally, it belongs to him.
(I have tried to counsel a sensible reconciliation, but the man is angry and toxic).
Is that right? Does it not belong to her?
It has a tracker so she knows where it is, but the Police seem uninterested. She has contacted the man who she suspected had it due to the address, a friend of the father, to state her case but he claims it is now his.
I would appreciate a legal opinion.
Thank you
Edited by WTFWT on Wednesday 23 February 19:01
If it was genuinely a gift (which it sounds like it was, absent anything to the contrary like him saying "this is mine but you can drive it") then it belongs to her. The fact that it is registered in her name and has been driven by her for 3 years, whilst not conclusive, certainly indicates that everyone considered it to be her property.
If the purchaser bought it in good faith for the proper market value, she's not getting it back and will have no action against the purchaser. Whether or not he did buy it in good faith is interesting, if the V5C wasn't present and he didn't question that.
Her action will probably be to sue her dad for e.g. a tort of conversion, which is a very unpleasant situation to be in... And difficult / expensive if he is not based in the UK
ETA: just seen that he sold it to a "mate" - might be helpful in showing that he wasn't a bona fide third party purchaser, which means her claim to the car hasn't been cleaned off.
If the purchaser bought it in good faith for the proper market value, she's not getting it back and will have no action against the purchaser. Whether or not he did buy it in good faith is interesting, if the V5C wasn't present and he didn't question that.
Her action will probably be to sue her dad for e.g. a tort of conversion, which is a very unpleasant situation to be in... And difficult / expensive if he is not based in the UK
ETA: just seen that he sold it to a "mate" - might be helpful in showing that he wasn't a bona fide third party purchaser, which means her claim to the car hasn't been cleaned off.
V5 is not significant. It's not proof of ownership and only proof of who is the keeper. As he has a receipt and she doesn't she has no way of proving it is hers.
Unless she has a video of the reveal.
However if she has receipts for tyres she might damand those back.
Maybe look at it as free motoring whilst it lasted.
In hindsight, she should have sold the car a week after getting it and used the money to buy another vehicle, but that would be weird.
Unless she has a video of the reveal.
However if she has receipts for tyres she might damand those back.
Maybe look at it as free motoring whilst it lasted.
In hindsight, she should have sold the car a week after getting it and used the money to buy another vehicle, but that would be weird.
Father pays for it and keeps it: it’s his.
Father pays for it and gifts it to daughter without reservations: it’s hers.
Evidencing the gift is the trick. Father having nothing to do with it since her birthday is helpful. Having a tracker subscription is also helpful. Father having the keys to drive it away, and not being stopped from doing so will take some explaining.
Police are being bone idle.
If you want it back, go take it. Or find a solicitor who will write a letter before claim to the current possessor alleging conversion.
Father pays for it and gifts it to daughter without reservations: it’s hers.
Evidencing the gift is the trick. Father having nothing to do with it since her birthday is helpful. Having a tracker subscription is also helpful. Father having the keys to drive it away, and not being stopped from doing so will take some explaining.
Police are being bone idle.
If you want it back, go take it. Or find a solicitor who will write a letter before claim to the current possessor alleging conversion.
The car is what is known as an ‘Indian Gift’.
This is to say, a gift which comes with unspoken terms and conditions attached, and is relatively commonplace in families who have a bit of money.
Usually the terms and conditions are along the lines of: Behave in a fashion that the family approve of, Date someone appropriate, stick to a career that the family approve, and so on.
Look on the bright side, you and your girlfriend haven’t lost anything as it didn’t cost you anything in the first place.
This is to say, a gift which comes with unspoken terms and conditions attached, and is relatively commonplace in families who have a bit of money.
Usually the terms and conditions are along the lines of: Behave in a fashion that the family approve of, Date someone appropriate, stick to a career that the family approve, and so on.
Look on the bright side, you and your girlfriend haven’t lost anything as it didn’t cost you anything in the first place.
K4sper said:
CraigyMc said:
If he bought it, it's his
Not necessarily... see aboveK4sper said:
If it was genuinely a gift (which it sounds like it was, absent anything to the contrary like him saying "this is mine but you can drive it") then it belongs to her.
The fact that it is registered in her name and has been driven by her for 3 years, whilst not conclusive, certainly indicates that everyone considered it to be her property.
I was the registered keeper of every company car I had, for years. I had it in my name, and drove it for more than 3 years.The fact that it is registered in her name and has been driven by her for 3 years, whilst not conclusive, certainly indicates that everyone considered it to be her property.
The tests you outline confer no ownership I'm afraid.
As others have stated, if dad bought the car, it's his.
Proving it may come down to bill of sale. You can bet he never gave her any documentation to the effect that ownership had been transferred to her.
IANAL...
I think the police are correct. The V5 means nothing - other than who is responsible to taxing the car. It may be worth considering what to do about the VED. I'd be tempted to SORN it and inform the new "owner" by recorded delivery. If it is driven without tax, inform the authorities about the situation, naming the new "owner" (quoting the police report number that you now have).
I don't think there is anything stopping the new "owner" from applying for a new V5.
There should be a sales receipt for the car, but there doesn't have to be one. Without one, I think you have a very good case, as daddy can't prove anything, unless he can get evidence from the person he bought the car from. You have evidence in the form of three years of V5s.
There must be legal precedence for this, and I would expect a lawyer to be along and let you know if you stand a chance getting the car back.
I think the police are correct. The V5 means nothing - other than who is responsible to taxing the car. It may be worth considering what to do about the VED. I'd be tempted to SORN it and inform the new "owner" by recorded delivery. If it is driven without tax, inform the authorities about the situation, naming the new "owner" (quoting the police report number that you now have).
I don't think there is anything stopping the new "owner" from applying for a new V5.
There should be a sales receipt for the car, but there doesn't have to be one. Without one, I think you have a very good case, as daddy can't prove anything, unless he can get evidence from the person he bought the car from. You have evidence in the form of three years of V5s.
There must be legal precedence for this, and I would expect a lawyer to be along and let you know if you stand a chance getting the car back.
Lord Marylebone said:
The car is what is known as an ‘Indian Gift’.
This is to say, a gift which comes with unspoken terms and conditions attached, and is relatively commonplace in families who have a bit of money.
Usually the terms and conditions are along the lines of: Behave in a fashion that the family approve of, Date someone appropriate, stick to a career that the family approve, and so on.
Look on the bright side, you and your girlfriend haven’t lost anything as it didn’t cost you anything in the first place.
Very much this. He disapproves of me also as I won’t allow his “schitck” to sit. This is to say, a gift which comes with unspoken terms and conditions attached, and is relatively commonplace in families who have a bit of money.
Usually the terms and conditions are along the lines of: Behave in a fashion that the family approve of, Date someone appropriate, stick to a career that the family approve, and so on.
Look on the bright side, you and your girlfriend haven’t lost anything as it didn’t cost you anything in the first place.
He also stole all her jewellery and watches but I told her that he wouldn’t dare take it through customs. Sure enough, her brother has been given a box and told not to look at it. We now have that back.
It’s bullying and abusive behaviour and I have encouraged her to stand her ground and hold
him to account. Police don’t want to know. I’m bewildered, quite frankly…
K4sper said:
If the purchaser bought it in good faith for the proper market value, she's not getting it back and will have no action against the purchaser. Whether or not he did buy it in good faith is interesting, if the V5C wasn't present and he didn't question that.
Sure about that? https://www.fsp-law.com/buying-stolen-property-som...WTFWT said:
Her father came to stay and, disapproving of a recent job change, has taken the car from her garage, “ sold it to a mate” and flown back to where he lives.
Depending on her interaction with her father how the car was taken - i.e. did she willingly hand over the keys or did he take them without her knowledge, then potentially claim off the insurance for a stolen car.I'm not sure it meets the criminal threshold and almost certainly going to be a civil matter.
Although he paid for the car, doesn't mean it's his. Also just because the V5 is in her name doesn't mean its hers.
Things to help prove it yours (or your girlfriends). Who paid for tax/MOT/services/repairs?
Ultimately it depends how much you want to fight it. How much is the car worth?
Although he paid for the car, doesn't mean it's his. Also just because the V5 is in her name doesn't mean its hers.
Things to help prove it yours (or your girlfriends). Who paid for tax/MOT/services/repairs?
Ultimately it depends how much you want to fight it. How much is the car worth?
PF62 said:
Depending on her interaction with her father how the car was taken - i.e. did she willingly hand over the keys or did he take them without her knowledge, then potentially claim off the insurance for a stolen car.
Insurance company will ask for a crime reference number, don't think you'd be able to claim if the police don't think it's a crime.TwigtheWonderkid said:
CraigyMc said:
If he bought it, it's his.
You know that birthday present I bought you 30 years ago, I'd like it back please. I bought it, so it's mine 
CraigyMc said:
I was the registered keeper of every company car I had, for years. I had it in my name, and drove it for more than 3 years.
The tests you outline confer no ownership I'm afraid.
As others have stated, if dad bought the car, it's his.
Proving it may come down to bill of sale. You can bet he never gave her any documentation to the effect that ownership had been transferred to her.
It wasn't a 'test', just pointing out things that are indicative of her having been gifted the car and thereafter being the legal owner. Not sure what sort of world you live in where people deliver bills of sale with gifts...The tests you outline confer no ownership I'm afraid.
As others have stated, if dad bought the car, it's his.
Proving it may come down to bill of sale. You can bet he never gave her any documentation to the effect that ownership had been transferred to her.
And I'm pretty sure your company cars were never gifted to you, and you never had any expectation of being the legal owner of them - that analogy is completely bogus.
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