Claiming home charging as an expense?
Discussion
Morning all, I just wondered if anyone had an insight as to whether it is practical/possible to claim back the cost of home charging a company car? My logic is that on previous ICE cars, all my fuel was provided and taxed as a BIK (had to track mileage etc) and so why should that principle not apply to an electric car?
As to how I might record that use given my metering doesn't distinguish between the charger and any other demand, that would be step 2.
Would appreciate any thoughts or experience of this please.
As to how I might record that use given my metering doesn't distinguish between the charger and any other demand, that would be step 2.
Would appreciate any thoughts or experience of this please.
With the arrival of PHEVs and EVs company cars we had to bin the claiming for fuel etc and go to pence per mile.
So my V60 PE is 15ppm - petrol can be figured out but electric coming from home work and impossible to separate out what was used when.
My colleagues Polestar 2 is 5ppm but and he charges at home, work and when out and about again impossible to work out costs.
We just use the Advisory fuel rate from the GOV now and it's all simple.
So my V60 PE is 15ppm - petrol can be figured out but electric coming from home work and impossible to separate out what was used when.
My colleagues Polestar 2 is 5ppm but and he charges at home, work and when out and about again impossible to work out costs.
We just use the Advisory fuel rate from the GOV now and it's all simple.
looksfast said:
Morning all, I just wondered if anyone had an insight as to whether it is practical/possible to claim back the cost of home charging a company car? My logic is that on previous ICE cars, all my fuel was provided and taxed as a BIK (had to track mileage etc) and so why should that principle not apply to an electric car?
As to how I might record that use given my metering doesn't distinguish between the charger and any other demand, that would be step 2.
Would appreciate any thoughts or experience of this please.
It's 5ppm.As to how I might record that use given my metering doesn't distinguish between the charger and any other demand, that would be step 2.
Would appreciate any thoughts or experience of this please.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advisory-fuel-rates
Thanks all, just to clarify using an example as I think my query might be unclear.
If I charge up a car at home and then drive 100 miles of which 40% are private miles and 60% are business miles, I can only claim 5ppm for 60 miles for business use. I need to pay for the 40 miles of personal use.
That makes sense, but the previous arrangement with ICE meant I claimed the entire cost of a tank of petrol/diesel as an expense and in my tax return, I could offset the proportion of business miles against that taxable sum to reduce the amount deducted. The new situation means I have to pay for the "tank of fuel" initially and claim only the business mileage rates once incurred if I am interpreting the replies correctly.
Using the same numbers, it would have looked like this:
Tank of Petrol £80 - taxed as a BIK
Business mileage at 45p per mile x 60 miles = £27
Deduct £27 from £80, leaving £53 as BIK amount.
It sounds as if I cannot pursue the same process as I used to on dino juice and charge for charging the entire battery at cost, then adjusting for the proportion of business miles.
Corrections welcomed if I am being stupid.
If I charge up a car at home and then drive 100 miles of which 40% are private miles and 60% are business miles, I can only claim 5ppm for 60 miles for business use. I need to pay for the 40 miles of personal use.
That makes sense, but the previous arrangement with ICE meant I claimed the entire cost of a tank of petrol/diesel as an expense and in my tax return, I could offset the proportion of business miles against that taxable sum to reduce the amount deducted. The new situation means I have to pay for the "tank of fuel" initially and claim only the business mileage rates once incurred if I am interpreting the replies correctly.
Using the same numbers, it would have looked like this:
Tank of Petrol £80 - taxed as a BIK
Business mileage at 45p per mile x 60 miles = £27
Deduct £27 from £80, leaving £53 as BIK amount.
It sounds as if I cannot pursue the same process as I used to on dino juice and charge for charging the entire battery at cost, then adjusting for the proportion of business miles.
Corrections welcomed if I am being stupid.
looksfast said:
Tank of Petrol £80 - taxed as a BIK
Business mileage at 45p per mile x 60 miles = £27
Deduct £27 from £80, leaving £53 as BIK amount.
Interesting point that I hadn' t thought about with EVs.Business mileage at 45p per mile x 60 miles = £27
Deduct £27 from £80, leaving £53 as BIK amount.
However, aren't you doing the ICE calc wrong? The 45p is is if it's your own car, not for a company one. I think you should be using the AFR fuel rates.
Sheepshanks said:
looksfast said:
Tank of Petrol £80 - taxed as a BIK
Business mileage at 45p per mile x 60 miles = £27
Deduct £27 from £80, leaving £53 as BIK amount.
Interesting point that I hadn' t thought about with EVs.Business mileage at 45p per mile x 60 miles = £27
Deduct £27 from £80, leaving £53 as BIK amount.
However, aren't you doing the ICE calc wrong? The 45p is is if it's your own car, not for a company one. I think you should be using the AFR fuel rates.
I agree that this is probably not worth dying in a ditch over, but switching back to a company car after using my own for years, I just want to get it right from the start. Tax investigations in the past have made me a bit twitchy!
It's really the principle but as above, the sums are pretty low at the moment...
I suppose the equivalent now would be to claim your entire electicity bill, but then everything that wasn't covered by business mileage at 5p/mile would be taxabe as a BIK.
In reality, your whole bill is going to far less than the fuel you were buying. I just can't see the above arrangement flying though!
In reality, your whole bill is going to far less than the fuel you were buying. I just can't see the above arrangement flying though!
looksfast said:
Thanks all, just to clarify using an example as I think my query might be unclear.
If I charge up a car at home and then drive 100 miles of which 40% are private miles and 60% are business miles, I can only claim 5ppm for 60 miles for business use. I need to pay for the 40 miles of personal use.
That makes sense, but the previous arrangement with ICE meant I claimed the entire cost of a tank of petrol/diesel as an expense and in my tax return, I could offset the proportion of business miles against that taxable sum to reduce the amount deducted. The new situation means I have to pay for the "tank of fuel" initially and claim only the business mileage rates once incurred if I am interpreting the replies correctly.
Using the same numbers, it would have looked like this:
Tank of Petrol £80 - taxed as a BIK
Business mileage at 45p per mile x 60 miles = £27
Deduct £27 from £80, leaving £53 as BIK amount.
It sounds as if I cannot pursue the same process as I used to on dino juice and charge for charging the entire battery at cost, then adjusting for the proportion of business miles.
Corrections welcomed if I am being stupid.
The 45p is for using your own car.If I charge up a car at home and then drive 100 miles of which 40% are private miles and 60% are business miles, I can only claim 5ppm for 60 miles for business use. I need to pay for the 40 miles of personal use.
That makes sense, but the previous arrangement with ICE meant I claimed the entire cost of a tank of petrol/diesel as an expense and in my tax return, I could offset the proportion of business miles against that taxable sum to reduce the amount deducted. The new situation means I have to pay for the "tank of fuel" initially and claim only the business mileage rates once incurred if I am interpreting the replies correctly.
Using the same numbers, it would have looked like this:
Tank of Petrol £80 - taxed as a BIK
Business mileage at 45p per mile x 60 miles = £27
Deduct £27 from £80, leaving £53 as BIK amount.
It sounds as if I cannot pursue the same process as I used to on dino juice and charge for charging the entire battery at cost, then adjusting for the proportion of business miles.
Corrections welcomed if I am being stupid.
The rates for "company car" or fuel card are different.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advisory-fuel-rates
Certainly the way it would work for us is those with a fuel card would "pay" for private fuel used at the HMRC rates, this avoids any BIK.
So to take your example in my car.
Personal mileage at 22p/mile x 40 miles = £8.80 (owed to the company).
With an EV it would be similar only the other way round.
Personal mileage at 5p/mile x 60 miles = £3.00 (paid by the company).
You don't mention *which* EV but if we assume 2.5 miles/kWh this makes it a bit s
t tbh. Even at 2021 rates (ie about 19p/kwh) it would cost you about 8p/mile but with estimated rates going up to ~27p/kwh it will cost you about 11p/mile. You need something that will do 3.8miles/kwh or better. So you will be subbing the company every time you use it....not to be fair that this is any different to previous rates, they were all based on the claimed mpg which we all know are a work of fiction, you needed to match or better them to breakeven if you don't have a fuel card and are paying for fuel and getting recharged for business miles! Very, very hard to get anywhere near those claimed figures.
Edited by Fastdruid on Monday 28th February 11:53
Fastdruid said:
The 45p is for using your own car.
The rates for "company car" or fuel card are different.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advisory-fuel-rates
Certainly the way it would work for us is those with a fuel card would "pay" for private fuel used at the HMRC rates, this avoids any BIK.
So to take your example in my car.
Personal mileage at 22p/mile x 40 miles = £8.80 (owed to the company).
With an EV it would be similar only the other way round.
Personal mileage at 5p/mile x 60 miles = £3.00 (paid by the company).
You don't mention *which* EV but if we assume 2.5 miles/kWh this makes it a bit st tbh. Even at 2021 rates (ie about 19p/kwh) it would cost you about 8p/mile but with estimated rates going up to ~27p/kwh it will cost you about 11p/mile. You need something that will do 3.8miles/kwh or better.
So you will be subbing the company every time you use it....not to be fair that this is any different to previous rates, they were all based on the claimed mpg which we all know are a work of fiction and you needed to match or better them to break even if you don't have a fuel card and are paying for fuel and getting recharged for business miles! Very, very hard to get anywhere near those claimed figures.
That's really useful thank you.
The rates for "company car" or fuel card are different.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advisory-fuel-rates
Certainly the way it would work for us is those with a fuel card would "pay" for private fuel used at the HMRC rates, this avoids any BIK.
So to take your example in my car.
Personal mileage at 22p/mile x 40 miles = £8.80 (owed to the company).
With an EV it would be similar only the other way round.
Personal mileage at 5p/mile x 60 miles = £3.00 (paid by the company).
You don't mention *which* EV but if we assume 2.5 miles/kWh this makes it a bit s
t tbh. Even at 2021 rates (ie about 19p/kwh) it would cost you about 8p/mile but with estimated rates going up to ~27p/kwh it will cost you about 11p/mile. You need something that will do 3.8miles/kwh or better. So you will be subbing the company every time you use it....not to be fair that this is any different to previous rates, they were all based on the claimed mpg which we all know are a work of fiction and you needed to match or better them to break even if you don't have a fuel card and are paying for fuel and getting recharged for business miles! Very, very hard to get anywhere near those claimed figures.
That's really useful thank you.
looksfast said:
Thanks all, just to clarify using an example as I think my query might be unclear.
If I charge up a car at home and then drive 100 miles of which 40% are private miles and 60% are business miles, I can only claim 5ppm for 60 miles for business use. I need to pay for the 40 miles of personal use.
That makes sense, but the previous arrangement with ICE meant I claimed the entire cost of a tank of petrol/diesel as an expense and in my tax return, I could offset the proportion of business miles against that taxable sum to reduce the amount deducted. The new situation means I have to pay for the "tank of fuel" initially and claim only the business mileage rates once incurred if I am interpreting the replies correctly.
Using the same numbers, it would have looked like this:
Tank of Petrol £80 - taxed as a BIK
Business mileage at 45p per mile x 60 miles = £27
Deduct £27 from £80, leaving £53 as BIK amount.
It sounds as if I cannot pursue the same process as I used to on dino juice and charge for charging the entire battery at cost, then adjusting for the proportion of business miles.
Corrections welcomed if I am being stupid.
I think you're comparing Apples and Oranges. The above figures would be for using your personal car for business mileage. You said your EV was a company car. If I charge up a car at home and then drive 100 miles of which 40% are private miles and 60% are business miles, I can only claim 5ppm for 60 miles for business use. I need to pay for the 40 miles of personal use.
That makes sense, but the previous arrangement with ICE meant I claimed the entire cost of a tank of petrol/diesel as an expense and in my tax return, I could offset the proportion of business miles against that taxable sum to reduce the amount deducted. The new situation means I have to pay for the "tank of fuel" initially and claim only the business mileage rates once incurred if I am interpreting the replies correctly.
Using the same numbers, it would have looked like this:
Tank of Petrol £80 - taxed as a BIK
Business mileage at 45p per mile x 60 miles = £27
Deduct £27 from £80, leaving £53 as BIK amount.
It sounds as if I cannot pursue the same process as I used to on dino juice and charge for charging the entire battery at cost, then adjusting for the proportion of business miles.
Corrections welcomed if I am being stupid.
With an EV company car, at 5ppm unless you choose one of the more efficient models and are locked into a cheap overnight tariff you'll end up paying out of you own pocket for a portion of business miles.
Let's say your EV averages 3 miles/kWh across a year. You'd need to be paying around 13p a kW on your tariff to break even with charging losses considered. Any more than that is costing you money to do business trips, and we all know the price per kW is only going in one direction.
Let's say your EV averages 3 miles/kWh across a year. You'd need to be paying around 13p a kW on your tariff to break even with charging losses considered. Any more than that is costing you money to do business trips, and we all know the price per kW is only going in one direction.
SWoll said:
With an EV company car, at 5ppm unless you choose one of the more efficient models and are locked into a cheap overnight tariff you'll end up paying out of you own pocket for a portion of business miles.
Let's say your EV averages 3 miles/kWh across a year. You'd need to be paying around 13p a kW on your tariff to break even with charging losses considered. Any more than that is costing you money to do business trips, and we all know the price per kW is only going in one direction.
OTOH you can get significant incentives such as salary sacrifice and massively reduced BIK (vs an ICE company car) that can somewhat make up for it. Let's say your EV averages 3 miles/kWh across a year. You'd need to be paying around 13p a kW on your tariff to break even with charging losses considered. Any more than that is costing you money to do business trips, and we all know the price per kW is only going in one direction.
Reality is that everyone is different and you *have* to do the sums. For example right now I'm doing barely any business miles so subbing the company wouldn't be that big a deal...but equally an EV is *massively* more expensive than ICE (particularly with the ranges I would want for business use) and I'm not doing enough personal miles to make enough of a saving to offset it against fuel!
How frequently are the official rates reviewed? That 5ppm is going to be hopelessly unrealistic for the majority of people very shortly.
I don't have a company car but luckily my employer has confirmed I can continue to claim 45ppm after switching to an ev (even though they won't be able to claim VAT back as I can't submit a fuel receipt).
I don't have a company car but luckily my employer has confirmed I can continue to claim 45ppm after switching to an ev (even though they won't be able to claim VAT back as I can't submit a fuel receipt).
doesthiswork said:
How frequently are the official rates reviewed?
HMRC review rates quarterly on:1 March
1 June
1 September
1 December
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advisory-fuel-rates
..so they've only just been done - think they were announced a few days ago.
doesthiswork said:
How frequently are the official rates reviewed? That 5ppm is going to be hopelessly unrealistic for the majority of people very shortly.
Shortly? As I said above, unless you're getting above 3.8Mi/kwh (or on a really good cheap overnight rate) you're already subbing the company at 5ppm. If you ever need to charge other than free you're certainly subbing them! I have my Tesla as a company car. Our policy (a fortune 100 company) is that we claim all charging expenses.
Home charging requires a report containing date, kWh used and cost per kWh.
This is all expensable via our expense system.
We are also provided with an Allstar EV card that is of limited use as there are not many networks currently supported.
BIK wise - anything except the allstar card is subject to BIK at your nominal rate. This is as HMRC do not currently class electricity as a fuel. As such any charge that involves you paying and claiming back are subject to BIK. The only “free” way to charge is to use the allstar card.
You can of course claim your 4p/5p back off HMRC on your tax return to reduce this amount
Home charging requires a report containing date, kWh used and cost per kWh.
This is all expensable via our expense system.
We are also provided with an Allstar EV card that is of limited use as there are not many networks currently supported.
BIK wise - anything except the allstar card is subject to BIK at your nominal rate. This is as HMRC do not currently class electricity as a fuel. As such any charge that involves you paying and claiming back are subject to BIK. The only “free” way to charge is to use the allstar card.
You can of course claim your 4p/5p back off HMRC on your tax return to reduce this amount
Fastdruid said:
looksfast said:
Thanks all, just to clarify using an example as I think my query might be unclear.
If I charge up a car at home and then drive 100 miles of which 40% are private miles and 60% are business miles, I can only claim 5ppm for 60 miles for business use. I need to pay for the 40 miles of personal use.
That makes sense, but the previous arrangement with ICE meant I claimed the entire cost of a tank of petrol/diesel as an expense and in my tax return, I could offset the proportion of business miles against that taxable sum to reduce the amount deducted. The new situation means I have to pay for the "tank of fuel" initially and claim only the business mileage rates once incurred if I am interpreting the replies correctly.
Using the same numbers, it would have looked like this:
Tank of Petrol £80 - taxed as a BIK
Business mileage at 45p per mile x 60 miles = £27
Deduct £27 from £80, leaving £53 as BIK amount.
It sounds as if I cannot pursue the same process as I used to on dino juice and charge for charging the entire battery at cost, then adjusting for the proportion of business miles.
Corrections welcomed if I am being stupid.
The 45p is for using your own car.If I charge up a car at home and then drive 100 miles of which 40% are private miles and 60% are business miles, I can only claim 5ppm for 60 miles for business use. I need to pay for the 40 miles of personal use.
That makes sense, but the previous arrangement with ICE meant I claimed the entire cost of a tank of petrol/diesel as an expense and in my tax return, I could offset the proportion of business miles against that taxable sum to reduce the amount deducted. The new situation means I have to pay for the "tank of fuel" initially and claim only the business mileage rates once incurred if I am interpreting the replies correctly.
Using the same numbers, it would have looked like this:
Tank of Petrol £80 - taxed as a BIK
Business mileage at 45p per mile x 60 miles = £27
Deduct £27 from £80, leaving £53 as BIK amount.
It sounds as if I cannot pursue the same process as I used to on dino juice and charge for charging the entire battery at cost, then adjusting for the proportion of business miles.
Corrections welcomed if I am being stupid.
The rates for "company car" or fuel card are different.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advisory-fuel-rates
Certainly the way it would work for us is those with a fuel card would "pay" for private fuel used at the HMRC rates, this avoids any BIK.
So to take your example in my car.
Personal mileage at 22p/mile x 40 miles = £8.80 (owed to the company).
With an EV it would be similar only the other way round.
Personal mileage at 5p/mile x 60 miles = £3.00 (paid by the company).
You don't mention *which* EV but if we assume 2.5 miles/kWh this makes it a bit s
t tbh. Even at 2021 rates (ie about 19p/kwh) it would cost you about 8p/mile but with estimated rates going up to ~27p/kwh it will cost you about 11p/mile. You need something that will do 3.8miles/kwh or better. So you will be subbing the company every time you use it....not to be fair that this is any different to previous rates, they were all based on the claimed mpg which we all know are a work of fiction, you needed to match or better them to breakeven if you don't have a fuel card and are paying for fuel and getting recharged for business miles! Very, very hard to get anywhere near those claimed figures.
Edited by Fastdruid on Monday 28th February 11:53
Best arrangement IMO as with my mix of business miles and personal miles I still came up on top, even with a car that couldn’t crack 14mpg.
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