Using a mobile phone whilst driving - Bluetooth - music

[agtlaw]

Bluetooth your music from a hand-held mobile phone to your car audio system is an 'interactive communication function.'

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2022/50...

In any event, the law is changing on 25 March 2022.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/81/conten...

[Scrump]

Am I correct in my understanding that it is okay (and will continue to be okay post 25th March) to touch the screen and stream music from my phone as long as it is secured in a holder?

[mickyh7]

If this is the case, let's hope Touchscreen Controls are also banned in cars.
It's the same thing, only more complicated.
Once my Spotify is on, I can use handsfree in my car, or touch steering wheel controls.
These appeals seem to be from people who know they have broken the Law, but want a Loophole exit.
The huge majority of people I see use phone cradles nowadays.
Only the Dicks don't- So hit them.

[deckster]

So from a quick scan of those two links, this is just closing the loophole where people have (with varying degrees of success) argued that they weren't using the phone for "interactive communications" when just listening to music. The linked case confirms the somewhat flimsy conclusion (to my mind) that "interactive communications" includes the communication of the phone with the vehicle over bluetooth, and therefore the driver was indeed guilty of an offence. Which is the correct conclusion but requires some reasonably convoluted mental and legal manoeuvring to get there.

This change just removes all doubt that any hand-held use of the phone is illegal, with the sole exception of using it to make a contactless payment whilst the car is stationary. Use in a cradle, where the phone isn't being held in the hand, is still OK.

All of which sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[agtlaw]

Scrump said:

Am I correct in my understanding that it is okay (and will continue to be okay post 25th March) to touch the screen and stream music from my phone as long as it is secured in a holder?

It depends. It's generally not ok, for example, to drive whilst composing a text message on a hand-held phone or a phone attached to a cradle. Depending on the circumstances, that conduct may amount to:

- dangerous driving
- careless driving (driving without due care and attention)
- careless driving (inconsiderate driving)
- using a vehicle in a position which does not give proper control

It was said in Barreto (2019) (filming whilst driving):

"It should not be thought that this is a green light for people to make films as they drive. As I have already said, driving while filming events or taking photographs whether with a separate camera or with the camera on a phone, may be cogent evidence of careless driving, and possibly of dangerous driving. It is criminal conduct which may be prosecuted and on conviction may result in the imposition of penalties significantly more serious than those which flow from breach of the regulations. The same applies to any other use of the phone while driving."

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/0...

[sospan]

It looks like the only legal use is for payments.
Audio seems banned as the phone is using bluetooth to the sound system but control is via the phone?
How about Waze or any other satnav system? Ok to use the built in system or a satndalone Garmin ( say) but not a mobile phone with an app?
It appears to be the type of device being singled out. Probably due to the arguments put forward during court cases to claim the nature of use not being a phone as such.
Closing of loopholes.
I recently put Waze on my mobile so it won’t be legal to use?
Using my plug in satnav is ok though?
Just an afterthought....
Satnav set up in a cradle. Mobile with Waze in a cradle next to it. Both running with no touching.
One is legal and the other illegal?

Edited by sospan on Thursday 10th March 12:27

[mickyh7]

sospan said:

It looks like the only legal use is for payments.
Audio seems banned as the phone is using bluetooth to the sound system but control is via the phone?
How about Waze or any other satnav system? Ok to use the built in system or a satndalone Garmin ( say) but not a mobile phone with an app?
It appears to be the type of device being singled out. Probably due to the arguments put forward during court cases to claim the nature of use not being a phone as such.
Closing of loopholes.
I recently put Waze on my mobile so it won’t be legal to use?
Using my plug in satnav is ok though?
Just an afterthought....
Satnav set up in a cradle. Mobile with Waze in a cradle next to it. Both running with no touching.
One is legal and the other illegal?

Edited by sospan on Thursday 10th March 12:27

If you set up Waze before you set off, which is normal, what law do you break by looking and listening?

[deckster]

mickyh7 said:

sospan said:

It looks like the only legal use is for payments.
Audio seems banned as the phone is using bluetooth to the sound system but control is via the phone?
How about Waze or any other satnav system? Ok to use the built in system or a satndalone Garmin ( say) but not a mobile phone with an app?
It appears to be the type of device being singled out. Probably due to the arguments put forward during court cases to claim the nature of use not being a phone as such.
Closing of loopholes.
I recently put Waze on my mobile so it won’t be legal to use?
Using my plug in satnav is ok though?
Just an afterthought....
Satnav set up in a cradle. Mobile with Waze in a cradle next to it. Both running with no touching.
One is legal and the other illegal?

Edited by sospan on Thursday 10th March 12:27

If you set up Waze before you set off, which is normal, what law do you break by looking and listening?

Strongly suggest you chaps read the links. Specifically the explanatory note to the regulations:

Explanatory note said:

widening the scope of the offence to include any use of a mobile telephone or interactive communication device held in the hand whilst driving These provisions remove the requirement that the driver is using the mobile telephone or interactive communication device to perform an interactive communication function.

(my bold)

The change, as clearly stated, is around removing the requirement to be performing an 'interactive communication function'. There is no change that says you can't use your phone in a cradle.

[I am alright Jack]

sospan said:

Satnav set up in a cradle. Mobile with Waze in a cradle next to it. Both running with no touching.
One is legal and the other illegal

No, because its in a cradle.

Just re read your post. If you're not touching it, it makes no difference what it's in.

Edited by I am alright Jack on Thursday 10th March 13:06

[RB Will]

Do all these rules just apply to mobile phones or any device? eg if I use an ipad / tablet for music, maps emails, whatsapp etc while driving I'm fine?

[mickyh7]

I am alright Jack said:

No, because its in a cradle.

Pretty sure you can be charged with something if you start pressing your phone, whilst driving, even when it's in a cradle.
DWDC&A I think.
Same as eating and drinking while driving.
We all do that occasionally, but people do get done for it, occasionally!

Edited by mickyh7 on Thursday 10th March 13:17

[Cat]

RB Will said:

Do all these rules just apply to mobile phones or any device? eg if I use an ipad / tablet for music, maps emails, whatsapp etc while driving I'm fine?

In addition to mobile phones specifically the legislation also prohibits the hand held use of other devices which perform an interactive communications function. This would include tablets/lpads etc.

Cat

[curvature]

So what about Apple CarPlay etc?

I've just bought a weekend car that has an aftermarket head unit that folds out. The phone is in the glovebox connected via a USB lead.

Brings an older car up to date with satnav and calls etc.

Is this legal? The phones well out of way but I am touching another screen or os this just classed as being part of the car?

[deckster]

curvature said:

So what about Apple CarPlay etc?

I've just bought a weekend car that has an aftermarket head unit that folds out. The phone is in the glovebox connected via a USB lead.

Brings an older car up to date with satnav and calls etc.

Is this legal? The phones well out of way but I am touching another screen or os this just classed as being part of the car?

Are you holding the head unit in your hand whilst driving?

[mickyh7]

deckster said:

Are you holding the head unit in your hand whilst driving?

This is the (still) Grey area.
You can still get done for DWDCA whilst the phone is in a holder.
No one knows 100% what you can or can't do.
Any Legal people reading this that would like to comment?

[deckster]

mickyh7 said:

deckster said:

Are you holding the head unit in your hand whilst driving?

This is the (still) Grey area.
You can still get done for DWDCA whilst the phone is in a holder.
No one knows 100% what you can or can't do.
Any Legal people reading this that would like to comment?

There is no grey area. The law specifies in detail what you can and can't do.

You can be done for DWDCA if you are driving without due care and attention. If your lack of due care and attention is that you weren't focussing on the road, it matters not whether it's a phone in a cradle, the built-in unit, your air-con controls, or getting a blow-job from your passenger. It's the lack of attention that matters.

There is no specific offence for using a device in a cradle. There has to be some other reason for charging you with an offence other than you were using a device in a cradle.

There is a specific offence for using a device whilst it's held in your hand. They don't need any other reason to charge you with an offence. Your driving and attention could be perfectly fine, but you are still committing an offence by holding the device in your hand.

[trails]

mickyh7 said:

deckster said:

Are you holding the head unit in your hand whilst driving?

This is the (still) Grey area.
You can still get done for DWDCA whilst the phone is in a holder.
No one knows 100% what you can or can't do.
Any Legal people reading this that would like to comment?

A few posts up AGTLaw...the clue is in the username

[RB Will]

What about the head units, usually aftermarket that you can control with a hand held remote? do you have to bin the remote now or screw it to the car?

[mickyh7]

trails said:

mickyh7 said:

deckster said:

Are you holding the head unit in your hand whilst driving?

This is the (still) Grey area.
You can still get done for DWDCA whilst the phone is in a holder.
No one knows 100% what you can or can't do.
Any Legal people reading this that would like to comment?

A few posts up AGTLaw...the clue is in the username

Oops I missed that.
However, reading the legal document, I can't make sense of it.
I still Don't know if I'm allowed to touch my phone screen to access Spotify, it being a audio/music file.
Or turn on my phone, to access Waze, which is a app, not a physical Sat Nav.
This is most certainly because IANAL.
I want to know the facts, in Layman's Terms.
Not from strangers opinions on a public forum!
Only then will I feel safe, accessing my music, in front of a Policeman.

[I am alright Jack]

mickyh7 said:

I am alright Jack said:

No, because its in a cradle.

Pretty sure you can be charged with something if you start pressing your phone, whilst driving, even when it's in a cradle.
DWDC&A I think.
Same as eating and drinking while driving.
We all do that occasionally, but people do get done for it, occasionally!

My answer was to this specific question.

Sospan said:

Satnav set up in a cradle. Mobile with Waze in a cradle next to it. Both running with no touching.
One is legal and the other illegal