Karbonius CF reproduction of standard S54 plenum (EOI)
Discussion
Hi all,
I visit these forums a lot to read content (the Chris Harris Z4M thread kept me busy for a while...), but have not posted before.
Anyway, over on zpost we are gathering expressions of interest in a run of carbon replicas of the standard S54 plenum, produced by Karbonius. For Z4s, we don't have the option of running a CSL MAP setup so installing a CSL-style intake means alpha-n tuning, which is good enough for some but not for others. So, the idea is to achieve some of the CSL intake sound, keeping the MAF and without having to adjust the car's tune at all. Of course, it will not make any more power than the stock plenum. Some Z4 owners have Eventuri, Gruppe M, AFE intakes, but the hope is that a carbon plenum would add more on top of this. How much more, we don't know.
The Z4M community is pretty small, but I'm hoping there will be enough to get us over the minimum number of EOI Karbonius is looking for to make a test (20). We currently have 13 EOI from Z4 owners, so we aren't too far away. If the test plenum is a failure, then no one is committed to buying one. Pasted below is the information from zpost. If you're interested, please post to let me know.
https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1900...
Karbonius has estimated the price will be about 1,200 Euro (this does not include shipping from Spain and any taxes and duties that are payable).
To summarise Karbonius's reply, if we can find 20 people to express an interest in purchasing a CF version of the stock plenum, they will make a test.
"Hi Michael, thanks so much for contacting us with so interesting topic!! Isn´t the first time someone asking for this!!
Yes, we could do it, but there are any problems with this, the first is the coist of the molds!! an standar mold in GF only to make 20 or 30 pieces , could cost around 3000€, and then the pieces.. this is the first problem..
the second, is until we made the first unit we didn´t know what will be the sound, if louder or lower sound comparing with CSL, at first I would say lower than CSL, and this could be a problem, expend a lot of money on the mold and finally didn´t get the expected sound !!!
We could make a test, but we should have at least 20 interested persons in it!!"
I visit these forums a lot to read content (the Chris Harris Z4M thread kept me busy for a while...), but have not posted before.
Anyway, over on zpost we are gathering expressions of interest in a run of carbon replicas of the standard S54 plenum, produced by Karbonius. For Z4s, we don't have the option of running a CSL MAP setup so installing a CSL-style intake means alpha-n tuning, which is good enough for some but not for others. So, the idea is to achieve some of the CSL intake sound, keeping the MAF and without having to adjust the car's tune at all. Of course, it will not make any more power than the stock plenum. Some Z4 owners have Eventuri, Gruppe M, AFE intakes, but the hope is that a carbon plenum would add more on top of this. How much more, we don't know.
The Z4M community is pretty small, but I'm hoping there will be enough to get us over the minimum number of EOI Karbonius is looking for to make a test (20). We currently have 13 EOI from Z4 owners, so we aren't too far away. If the test plenum is a failure, then no one is committed to buying one. Pasted below is the information from zpost. If you're interested, please post to let me know.
https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1900...
Karbonius has estimated the price will be about 1,200 Euro (this does not include shipping from Spain and any taxes and duties that are payable).
To summarise Karbonius's reply, if we can find 20 people to express an interest in purchasing a CF version of the stock plenum, they will make a test.
"Hi Michael, thanks so much for contacting us with so interesting topic!! Isn´t the first time someone asking for this!!
Yes, we could do it, but there are any problems with this, the first is the coist of the molds!! an standar mold in GF only to make 20 or 30 pieces , could cost around 3000€, and then the pieces.. this is the first problem..
the second, is until we made the first unit we didn´t know what will be the sound, if louder or lower sound comparing with CSL, at first I would say lower than CSL, and this could be a problem, expend a lot of money on the mold and finally didn´t get the expected sound !!!
We could make a test, but we should have at least 20 interested persons in it!!"
I'm not in the market for this - much as I like the idea - but I do have a question.
What is the driver behind making these in carbon fibre? Obvs it's light and fancy and I know the CSL one is, but why not use an alternative, cheaper material? Is the CF in some way responsible for the sound or is it just cos peeps love the carbon?
What is the driver behind making these in carbon fibre? Obvs it's light and fancy and I know the CSL one is, but why not use an alternative, cheaper material? Is the CF in some way responsible for the sound or is it just cos peeps love the carbon?
Dr Nookie said:
I'm not in the market for this - much as I like the idea - but I do have a question.
What is the driver behind making these in carbon fibre? Obvs it's light and fancy and I know the CSL one is, but why not use an alternative, cheaper material? Is the CF in some way responsible for the sound or is it just cos peeps love the carbon?
From my perspective, it's just about the sound, but it's a good point. Perhaps another material would provide similar or better sound qualities than carbon fibre. There are some examples of carbon plenums making more sound than the original plastic OE versions (E30 M3, Renault Clio, E9X M3), but there are also some shape changes for two of those three which may contribute.What is the driver behind making these in carbon fibre? Obvs it's light and fancy and I know the CSL one is, but why not use an alternative, cheaper material? Is the CF in some way responsible for the sound or is it just cos peeps love the carbon?
The question would be: what other materials are there that could work, aside from plastic and CF?
I've always wanted a CSL style airbox. Due to being in California its not really a feasible option so I went with the Eventuri carbon airbox, which I think sounds cracking for what it is. I'm not quite sure how much sound this would add if it was just replicating the OEM intake plenum. Unfortunately don't have the extra dosh at the moment to be on board but would love to hear how this turns out.
This is interesting. I have often wondered why a carbon airbox which retains the standard tune/MAF has not been made.
My only question would be that could it be made in such a way so as to have the CSL style air filter (i.e one big one covering the throttle bodies) as opposed to the standalone air filter directly behind the headlights? I appreciate this may be a silly question but I can't see a reason to want to keep the smaller filter when you could have a much larger one right next to the trumpets. Is there a reason the air needs to be filtered prior to the MAF with the current tune?
I have previously looked into the Eventuri but have been put off by the substandard filter medium. I have asked the manufacturer to provide filtration details of the (I believe Simota) unoiled filter but they declined to respond. The fact it is so much smaller than OEM, yet lets more air through, does concern me from a filtration standpoint. The Gruppe M box uses an even smaller K&N and is completely open to engine bay hot air.
If we could use an oiled cotton filter (I believe the CSL used BMC filters) directly over the throttle bodies then I may be interested. This way we are having the oiled medium further back than the MAF so no issues there, much larger filter area and I should imagine a much better throttle response.
My only question would be that could it be made in such a way so as to have the CSL style air filter (i.e one big one covering the throttle bodies) as opposed to the standalone air filter directly behind the headlights? I appreciate this may be a silly question but I can't see a reason to want to keep the smaller filter when you could have a much larger one right next to the trumpets. Is there a reason the air needs to be filtered prior to the MAF with the current tune?
I have previously looked into the Eventuri but have been put off by the substandard filter medium. I have asked the manufacturer to provide filtration details of the (I believe Simota) unoiled filter but they declined to respond. The fact it is so much smaller than OEM, yet lets more air through, does concern me from a filtration standpoint. The Gruppe M box uses an even smaller K&N and is completely open to engine bay hot air.
If we could use an oiled cotton filter (I believe the CSL used BMC filters) directly over the throttle bodies then I may be interested. This way we are having the oiled medium further back than the MAF so no issues there, much larger filter area and I should imagine a much better throttle response.
Edited by InductionRoar on Saturday 26th March 08:50
Polarbert said:
I've always wanted a CSL style airbox. Due to being in California its not really a feasible option so I went with the Eventuri carbon airbox, which I think sounds cracking for what it is. I'm not quite sure how much sound this would add if it was just replicating the OEM intake plenum. Unfortunately don't have the extra dosh at the moment to be on board but would love to hear how this turns out.
That is the 1,200 Euro question. I have an Eventuri as well but I feel like people outside the car benefit more than me when I'm driving it. I suppose that's because the mouth of the filter unit faces out the front of the car. I'm hoping getting more resonance ad the plenum will filter more into the cabin. We shall (hopefully) see.InductionRoar said:
This is interesting. I have often wondered why a carbon airbox which retains the standard tune/MAF has not been made.
My only question would be that could it be made in such a way so as to have the CSL style air filter (i.e one big one covering the throttle bodies) as opposed to the standalone air filter directly behind the headlights? I appreciate this may be a silly question but I can't see a reason to want to keep the smaller filter when you could have a much larger one right next to the trumpets. Is there a reason the air needs to be filtered prior to the MAF with the current tune?
I have previously looked into the Eventuri but have been put off by the substandard filter medium. I have asked the manufacturer to provide filtration details of the (I believe Simota) unoiled filter but they declined to respond. The fact it is so much smaller than OEM, yet lets more air through, does concern me from a filtration standpoint. The Gruppe M box uses an even smaller K&N and is completely open to engine bay hot air.
If we could use an oiled cotton filter (I believe the CSL used BMC filters) directly over the throttle bodies then I may be interested. This way we are having the oiled medium further back than the MAF so no issues there, much larger filter area and I should imagine a much better throttle response.
Unfortunately, I think using the CSL filter would require a major redesign. I'm not sure about the filter being after the MAF making a difference? A zpost user used the trumpet section of the Turner airbox and custom made a carbon fibre adapter to mate up with the stock MAF and airbox. He I'm pretty sure kept using the standard airfilter. You can see in the post below that space is pretty tight and you would need to add additional room for the filter. You would also need the box to be openable, so you can change the airfilter. I really like this idea but it's a major custom fabrication job and not really what we're trying to achieve here.My only question would be that could it be made in such a way so as to have the CSL style air filter (i.e one big one covering the throttle bodies) as opposed to the standalone air filter directly behind the headlights? I appreciate this may be a silly question but I can't see a reason to want to keep the smaller filter when you could have a much larger one right next to the trumpets. Is there a reason the air needs to be filtered prior to the MAF with the current tune?
I have previously looked into the Eventuri but have been put off by the substandard filter medium. I have asked the manufacturer to provide filtration details of the (I believe Simota) unoiled filter but they declined to respond. The fact it is so much smaller than OEM, yet lets more air through, does concern me from a filtration standpoint. The Gruppe M box uses an even smaller K&N and is completely open to engine bay hot air.
If we could use an oiled cotton filter (I believe the CSL used BMC filters) directly over the throttle bodies then I may be interested. This way we are having the oiled medium further back than the MAF so no issues there, much larger filter area and I should imagine a much better throttle response.
Edited by InductionRoar on Saturday 26th March 08:50
https://www.zpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=277042...
MBan said:
InductionRoar said:
This is interesting. I have often wondered why a carbon airbox which retains the standard tune/MAF has not been made.
My only question would be that could it be made in such a way so as to have the CSL style air filter (i.e one big one covering the throttle bodies) as opposed to the standalone air filter directly behind the headlights? I appreciate this may be a silly question but I can't see a reason to want to keep the smaller filter when you could have a much larger one right next to the trumpets. Is there a reason the air needs to be filtered prior to the MAF with the current tune?
I have previously looked into the Eventuri but have been put off by the substandard filter medium. I have asked the manufacturer to provide filtration details of the (I believe Simota) unoiled filter but they declined to respond. The fact it is so much smaller than OEM, yet lets more air through, does concern me from a filtration standpoint. The Gruppe M box uses an even smaller K&N and is completely open to engine bay hot air.
If we could use an oiled cotton filter (I believe the CSL used BMC filters) directly over the throttle bodies then I may be interested. This way we are having the oiled medium further back than the MAF so no issues there, much larger filter area and I should imagine a much better throttle response.
Unfortunately, I think using the CSL filter would require a major redesign. I'm not sure about the filter being after the MAF making a difference? A zpost user used the trumpet section of the Turner airbox and custom made a carbon fibre adapter to mate up with the stock MAF and airbox. He I'm pretty sure kept using the standard airfilter. You can see in the post below that space is pretty tight and you would need to add additional room for the filter. You would also need the box to be openable, so you can change the airfilter. I really like this idea but it's a major custom fabrication job and not really what we're trying to achieve here.My only question would be that could it be made in such a way so as to have the CSL style air filter (i.e one big one covering the throttle bodies) as opposed to the standalone air filter directly behind the headlights? I appreciate this may be a silly question but I can't see a reason to want to keep the smaller filter when you could have a much larger one right next to the trumpets. Is there a reason the air needs to be filtered prior to the MAF with the current tune?
I have previously looked into the Eventuri but have been put off by the substandard filter medium. I have asked the manufacturer to provide filtration details of the (I believe Simota) unoiled filter but they declined to respond. The fact it is so much smaller than OEM, yet lets more air through, does concern me from a filtration standpoint. The Gruppe M box uses an even smaller K&N and is completely open to engine bay hot air.
If we could use an oiled cotton filter (I believe the CSL used BMC filters) directly over the throttle bodies then I may be interested. This way we are having the oiled medium further back than the MAF so no issues there, much larger filter area and I should imagine a much better throttle response.
Edited by InductionRoar on Saturday 26th March 08:50
https://www.zpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=277042...
My only reason for mentioning the filtration being after the MAF was due to the inherent issue of MAF sensors and oil from cotton filters - hence why Eventuri use non oiled filters.
I agree the plenum would need to be redesigned to accommodate CSL-style air filter but, given it hasn't actually been designed yet, I thought it made sense to factor this in.
If we are using the standard airbox or any of the aftermarket options such as Eventuri, I am out.
Good luck with the build. I look forward to seeing the progress.
InductionRoar said:
Ah ok - fair enough.
My only reason for mentioning the filtration being after the MAF was due to the inherent issue of MAF sensors and oil from cotton filters - hence why Eventuri use non oiled filters.
I agree the plenum would need to be redesigned to accommodate CSL-style air filter but, given it hasn't actually been designed yet, I thought it made sense to factor this in.
If we are using the standard airbox or any of the aftermarket options such as Eventuri, I am out.
Good luck with the build. I look forward to seeing the progress.
When I first started looking into this, I didn't think it was going to go anywhere. I contacted Eventuri and they said they had thought about it in the past but the S54 is just too old a platform now for them to invest in more R&D on it. I emailed Karbonius and didn't hear back for two or 3 weeks, so I thought the whole idea was dead. Eventually I got in touch with Karbonius via Facebook Messenger but in the meantime I started talking to a local CF manufacturer that does custom parts for race teams. I reckon if you took a trumpet section from a CSL-style intake, a custom carbon fibre fabrication company could make the adapter to link up with the standard MAF and accommodate the CSL filter, a bit like the setup in the zpost post I linked to above. It wouldn't be cheap but it may get you to where you want to go. Tuning requirements is still a question mark but you could probably ask one of the established companies. Severn Tuning is excellent for that kind of thing.My only reason for mentioning the filtration being after the MAF was due to the inherent issue of MAF sensors and oil from cotton filters - hence why Eventuri use non oiled filters.
I agree the plenum would need to be redesigned to accommodate CSL-style air filter but, given it hasn't actually been designed yet, I thought it made sense to factor this in.
If we are using the standard airbox or any of the aftermarket options such as Eventuri, I am out.
Good luck with the build. I look forward to seeing the progress.
The only reason the quote Karbonius has given is half reasonable is because all they are doing is making a mould of a standard plenum and then reproducing it in CF. Any custom work with no base to start with would either be really expensive and/or not interesting to them. Sorry!
We have reached 20 EOI! I will contact Karbonius to work out next steps.
I’ll still add more EOI - the more the better.
For reference, the EOI list is here:
https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1900...
I’ll still add more EOI - the more the better.
For reference, the EOI list is here:
https://www.zpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1900...
Looking impressive so far. Picking up on my earlier posts regarding the fitting of a CSL style air filter, I had understood the new plenum was going to be a one piece item (ala OEM), which was one of the reasons it couldn't be accommodated.
I see they have now made a two piece item and I wonder if this could now be done?
If the new two-piece box could contain the air filter along the length the of the trumpets then there would be no need for a separate airbox (whether OEM or Eventuri).
This with a silicon elbow/carbon snorkel would be ideal for those not wanting to go down the Alpha-N route.
I see they have now made a two piece item and I wonder if this could now be done?
If the new two-piece box could contain the air filter along the length the of the trumpets then there would be no need for a separate airbox (whether OEM or Eventuri).
This with a silicon elbow/carbon snorkel would be ideal for those not wanting to go down the Alpha-N route.
To confirm a few more details:
- the plenum will be made in two pieces together but bonded together to result in a one-piece (so no CSL air filter)
- carbon fibre trumpets will be fitted
- Karbonius opted for a flat top surface (versus the having humps like the OE plenum) as this provides a louder sound. They were also not aiming for an exact reproduction.
- the plenum will be made in two pieces together but bonded together to result in a one-piece (so no CSL air filter)
- carbon fibre trumpets will be fitted
- Karbonius opted for a flat top surface (versus the having humps like the OE plenum) as this provides a louder sound. They were also not aiming for an exact reproduction.
MBan said:
To confirm a few more details:
- the plenum will be made in two pieces together but bonded together to result in a one-piece (so no CSL air filter)
- carbon fibre trumpets will be fitted
- Karbonius opted for a flat top surface (versus the having humps like the OE plenum) as this provides a louder sound. They were also not aiming for an exact reproduction.
Thanks for the update. I will follow with interest.- the plenum will be made in two pieces together but bonded together to result in a one-piece (so no CSL air filter)
- carbon fibre trumpets will be fitted
- Karbonius opted for a flat top surface (versus the having humps like the OE plenum) as this provides a louder sound. They were also not aiming for an exact reproduction.
The list was just to gather enough interest to convince Karbonius to make a prototype. The next step - subject to the test being successful - is to make the real thing and take orders. It’s possible there will be a production cap, but I hope anyone will be able to order one. I’m happy to put you on the list? If numbers are limited I would want to work from the top of the list until we run out of people or plenums.
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