Hybrid confusion needs clarifying.
Discussion
As per most PHers, as soon as I buy one car I’m already thinking a few years down the line to the next car. What with how things are changing I’ve got one eye on some sort of electrIc assisted car.
Now, on paper a hybrid that has about 30 mile range and a petrol engine for longer journeys sounds ideal for me but I’ve got nowhere to charge at home (on street parking only and you can never guarantee that I can park in front of my house) so with these hybrids, do you have to plug them in or will they charge on the move? If you can’t charge them, are you effectively dragging around all that weight for no extra power? The charging infrastructure round my way is also pitiful.
I’ve got one eye on a Peugeot 508PSE (should sell for buttons in a few years time) that sounds fantastic on paper but I can’t tell if they self charge on a long journey or if the batteries drain down am I only left with the 200bhp from the petrol motor rather than the 300bhp+ with all the motors combined? It’s a waste for me if it doesn’t.
I know a mild hybrid will do as I ask but it seems that only the Toyota family do it well and I’m not keen on any of their offerings. If hybrids can self charge, it opens up far more and interesting choice.
Now, on paper a hybrid that has about 30 mile range and a petrol engine for longer journeys sounds ideal for me but I’ve got nowhere to charge at home (on street parking only and you can never guarantee that I can park in front of my house) so with these hybrids, do you have to plug them in or will they charge on the move? If you can’t charge them, are you effectively dragging around all that weight for no extra power? The charging infrastructure round my way is also pitiful.
I’ve got one eye on a Peugeot 508PSE (should sell for buttons in a few years time) that sounds fantastic on paper but I can’t tell if they self charge on a long journey or if the batteries drain down am I only left with the 200bhp from the petrol motor rather than the 300bhp+ with all the motors combined? It’s a waste for me if it doesn’t.
I know a mild hybrid will do as I ask but it seems that only the Toyota family do it well and I’m not keen on any of their offerings. If hybrids can self charge, it opens up far more and interesting choice.
Hybrids with 30 miles of range are plug in hybrids (PHEV), they need charging from external electricity. If you can’t plug them in then they act like self charging hybrids (see below) but with the disadvantage of a heavier battery pack (which is unnecessarily large if you do not plug it in)
The non plug in hybrids, or mild hybrids have a much smaller battery pack and charge this up from excess power from the internal combustion engine. They run the ICE at it’s most efficient and harvest the excess power to top up the battery. When the car is just crawling along it may use the electric on its own and if it needs a burst of power when pulling away or accelerating then it uses the battery power to supplement the ICE. They have a very limited range and speed on pure electric.
With all types of hybrid, if the battery is depleted then the car will top it up from the ICE so if you need a burst of 300bhp it should be available (but not necessarily available for long).
There are variations between makes and models of cars but the above is how I generally understand it from my experience.
The non plug in hybrids, or mild hybrids have a much smaller battery pack and charge this up from excess power from the internal combustion engine. They run the ICE at it’s most efficient and harvest the excess power to top up the battery. When the car is just crawling along it may use the electric on its own and if it needs a burst of power when pulling away or accelerating then it uses the battery power to supplement the ICE. They have a very limited range and speed on pure electric.
With all types of hybrid, if the battery is depleted then the car will top it up from the ICE so if you need a burst of 300bhp it should be available (but not necessarily available for long).
There are variations between makes and models of cars but the above is how I generally understand it from my experience.
You'll be aware that the 30 mile range as quoted is a bit optimistic. Our A3 e-tron on full charge typically reports 26 miles, and in actual use is closer to 20.
I don't know specifically about the 508, but in most PHEVs you can charge on the move, but in doing so you'll be taking the hit on mpg, and doing away with almost all of the advantages of the idea.
Nevertheless, if you're thinking more about a few years down the line, the charging infrastructure will only improve. Keep an eye out for what you council plans regards charging points - hopefully your lot will be modifying lamp posts up and down your street.
I don't know specifically about the 508, but in most PHEVs you can charge on the move, but in doing so you'll be taking the hit on mpg, and doing away with almost all of the advantages of the idea.
Nevertheless, if you're thinking more about a few years down the line, the charging infrastructure will only improve. Keep an eye out for what you council plans regards charging points - hopefully your lot will be modifying lamp posts up and down your street.
There's a few distinctions here:
Mild hybrids are little more than an enhanced stop/start system. The (usually 48v) hybrid system can capture some energy under braking and use it for a little boost when you pull away again but can't move under electric power. Being fitted to loads of new models because it's cheap to fit, easy to package, it'll save a few grams of CO2 and consumers think hybrid = Prius levels of efficiency.
"Full" hybrids like the Toyotas have a bigger battery/motor, can creep along in traffic without the engine running, but achieve great mpg because they use a really efficient Atkinson cycle engine. They'd be horrible to drive without the hybrid system, but with an electric boost they can be a lot more responsive.
Some PHEVs are that, plus a bigger battery and the ability to charge it, but a lot are conventional ICE engines that aren't that efficient really. While you usually get modes that will hold or charge the battery, forcing the engine to run, that energy has to come from somewhere and charging up a battery plus moving the car uses more fuel that just moving the car.
My Golf GTE could do any combination of those modes, and in GTE (sport) mode it would always try to maintain about 10 miles of EV range so that there was enough boost there when you needed it. Overall not bad on a long trip but unless you're charging the battery on the move to save fuel in a traffic jam later on you won't see any real benefit if not charging.
They really work best when you can just plug in every day and EV range covers all or most of your miles, but you can easily do the long trips. Any public charging with them would be tedious.
Unlike BEVs, few PHEVs can rapid charge either so while a BEV owner might get 180 miles in during an hour long shop or gym session at a typical 50kW rapid, something like the 508 will only manage 10 miles on its slow AC charger.
Mild hybrids are little more than an enhanced stop/start system. The (usually 48v) hybrid system can capture some energy under braking and use it for a little boost when you pull away again but can't move under electric power. Being fitted to loads of new models because it's cheap to fit, easy to package, it'll save a few grams of CO2 and consumers think hybrid = Prius levels of efficiency.
"Full" hybrids like the Toyotas have a bigger battery/motor, can creep along in traffic without the engine running, but achieve great mpg because they use a really efficient Atkinson cycle engine. They'd be horrible to drive without the hybrid system, but with an electric boost they can be a lot more responsive.
Some PHEVs are that, plus a bigger battery and the ability to charge it, but a lot are conventional ICE engines that aren't that efficient really. While you usually get modes that will hold or charge the battery, forcing the engine to run, that energy has to come from somewhere and charging up a battery plus moving the car uses more fuel that just moving the car.
My Golf GTE could do any combination of those modes, and in GTE (sport) mode it would always try to maintain about 10 miles of EV range so that there was enough boost there when you needed it. Overall not bad on a long trip but unless you're charging the battery on the move to save fuel in a traffic jam later on you won't see any real benefit if not charging.
They really work best when you can just plug in every day and EV range covers all or most of your miles, but you can easily do the long trips. Any public charging with them would be tedious.
Unlike BEVs, few PHEVs can rapid charge either so while a BEV owner might get 180 miles in during an hour long shop or gym session at a typical 50kW rapid, something like the 508 will only manage 10 miles on its slow AC charger.
Canon_Fodder said:
OP if you can't charge at home or at work then neither an EV nor PHEV are going to be right for you at this point
Pretty much this. If you're not going to plug it in then a PHEV is pointless (unless it's a company car tax saving).A normal "self charging" hybrid is a much better option.
Canon_Fodder said:
OP if you can't charge at home or at work then neither an EV nor PHEV are going to be right for you at this point
really? an ev like the kona would do most people for a week of commuting. must be a charger somewhere near for a full weekend charge. even the charger black hole that is the peak district has enough dotted about to do that.sjg said:
There's a few distinctions here:
Mild hybrids are little more than an enhanced stop/start system. The (usually 48v) hybrid system can capture some energy under braking and use it for a little boost when you pull away again but can't move under electric power. Being fitted to loads of new models because it's cheap to fit, easy to package, it'll save a few grams of CO2 and consumers think hybrid = Prius levels of efficiency.
"Full" hybrids like the Toyotas have a bigger battery/motor, can creep along in traffic without the engine running, but achieve great mpg because they use a really efficient Atkinson cycle engine. They'd be horrible to drive without the hybrid system, but with an electric boost they can be a lot more responsive.
Some PHEVs are that, plus a bigger battery and the ability to charge it, but a lot are conventional ICE engines that aren't that efficient really. While you usually get modes that will hold or charge the battery, forcing the engine to run, that energy has to come from somewhere and charging up a battery plus moving the car uses more fuel that just moving the car.
My Golf GTE could do any combination of those modes, and in GTE (sport) mode it would always try to maintain about 10 miles of EV range so that there was enough boost there when you needed it. Overall not bad on a long trip but unless you're charging the battery on the move to save fuel in a traffic jam later on you won't see any real benefit if not charging.
They really work best when you can just plug in every day and EV range covers all or most of your miles, but you can easily do the long trips. Any public charging with them would be tedious.
Unlike BEVs, few PHEVs can rapid charge either so while a BEV owner might get 180 miles in during an hour long shop or gym session at a typical 50kW rapid, something like the 508 will only manage 10 miles on its slow AC charger.
Prius levels of efficiency?Mild hybrids are little more than an enhanced stop/start system. The (usually 48v) hybrid system can capture some energy under braking and use it for a little boost when you pull away again but can't move under electric power. Being fitted to loads of new models because it's cheap to fit, easy to package, it'll save a few grams of CO2 and consumers think hybrid = Prius levels of efficiency.
"Full" hybrids like the Toyotas have a bigger battery/motor, can creep along in traffic without the engine running, but achieve great mpg because they use a really efficient Atkinson cycle engine. They'd be horrible to drive without the hybrid system, but with an electric boost they can be a lot more responsive.
Some PHEVs are that, plus a bigger battery and the ability to charge it, but a lot are conventional ICE engines that aren't that efficient really. While you usually get modes that will hold or charge the battery, forcing the engine to run, that energy has to come from somewhere and charging up a battery plus moving the car uses more fuel that just moving the car.
My Golf GTE could do any combination of those modes, and in GTE (sport) mode it would always try to maintain about 10 miles of EV range so that there was enough boost there when you needed it. Overall not bad on a long trip but unless you're charging the battery on the move to save fuel in a traffic jam later on you won't see any real benefit if not charging.
They really work best when you can just plug in every day and EV range covers all or most of your miles, but you can easily do the long trips. Any public charging with them would be tedious.
Unlike BEVs, few PHEVs can rapid charge either so while a BEV owner might get 180 miles in during an hour long shop or gym session at a typical 50kW rapid, something like the 508 will only manage 10 miles on its slow AC charger.
They really aren't that effect
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