ICE, HEV, PHEV or BEV?
Discussion
I was asked a question by a colleague today and it got me thinking.
The question was: "You know a bit about cars, which smallish SUV HEV should I look at?"
The lady is single (no family), middle aged likes new things but anecdotally does not have a large amount of disposable income. Happily budgets PCP's for smaller hatchbacks/SUVs and generally has the intention of purchasing at the end, although this never quite materialises. I suspect this is because she has never got a car she is entirely happy with, will she ever, who knows (bad experience with Renault, quite likes her Hyundai Stonic now). I dare say the latest reason for a change is fear over legislation against ICE (factual or not it doesn't matter it's what she foresees). She only does local journeys, can't be more than 20 miles a day max (probably a lot less) but lives in a flat with no access to home charging.
I tried to put my own personal opinion aside, be logical and failed.
In this instance I think a HEV or PHEV are overly complicated solutions in weight and technology that just aren't needed for her profile. So in my head I come back to stick with ICE and educate that there are still a good few years left before that becomes untenable, if ever. Or my own personal opinion switch to BEV you are a perfect candidate, get one with a 150 mile range and fill it up once every 2 weeks at a coffee shop with a fast charger while you enjoy a hot beverage, cake and complimentary wifi (or just pop out and use the instavolt chargers on the business park next to the office for 30 mins when you are running low).
I think something like the Vauxhall Mokka-e would be ideal for her criteria.
That being said I am perfectly willing to be educated on HEV and PHEV, but are these not just stepping stones or for people needing to do longer journeys till the infrastructure can reliably support? The real question is I guess am I wrong and would her desire of a HEV actually be the way to go?
My view has been tainted by a 48v mild hybrid (not the same I know) that broke and I subsequently viewed as a bit of a ticking time bomb.
The question was: "You know a bit about cars, which smallish SUV HEV should I look at?"
The lady is single (no family), middle aged likes new things but anecdotally does not have a large amount of disposable income. Happily budgets PCP's for smaller hatchbacks/SUVs and generally has the intention of purchasing at the end, although this never quite materialises. I suspect this is because she has never got a car she is entirely happy with, will she ever, who knows (bad experience with Renault, quite likes her Hyundai Stonic now). I dare say the latest reason for a change is fear over legislation against ICE (factual or not it doesn't matter it's what she foresees). She only does local journeys, can't be more than 20 miles a day max (probably a lot less) but lives in a flat with no access to home charging.
I tried to put my own personal opinion aside, be logical and failed.
In this instance I think a HEV or PHEV are overly complicated solutions in weight and technology that just aren't needed for her profile. So in my head I come back to stick with ICE and educate that there are still a good few years left before that becomes untenable, if ever. Or my own personal opinion switch to BEV you are a perfect candidate, get one with a 150 mile range and fill it up once every 2 weeks at a coffee shop with a fast charger while you enjoy a hot beverage, cake and complimentary wifi (or just pop out and use the instavolt chargers on the business park next to the office for 30 mins when you are running low).
I think something like the Vauxhall Mokka-e would be ideal for her criteria.
That being said I am perfectly willing to be educated on HEV and PHEV, but are these not just stepping stones or for people needing to do longer journeys till the infrastructure can reliably support? The real question is I guess am I wrong and would her desire of a HEV actually be the way to go?
My view has been tainted by a 48v mild hybrid (not the same I know) that broke and I subsequently viewed as a bit of a ticking time bomb.
Interesting situation.
To be honest, I have always considered at home charging being essential for a BEV. If you cant charge at home (could be a charging station in the apartment block or something too), it does seriously limit their usability. Of course, you can offset this with charging at work, but relying 100% on the public charging network, that might be a challenge.
PHEV might be a good choice since they are pretty economical overall, but you really need to charge them at some point to get their real benefit. For example, 20 miles per day would be ideal for a PHEV if you could charge at home - top up at home, run on electricity for local trips and then maximize EV usage. If that isnt an opportunity, even a modern PHEV with 30 miles range or so is going to reduce its advantages.
Which leaves ICE or hybrid-ICE like a Prius. Have to think that this is probably the better option. An optimized car that can be efficient while on ICE but utilize a hybrid system is going to be pretty economical around town but isnt limited by range. As much as I dislike the Prius, they will get 40+MPG around town and dont need charging etc. Just get in and drive. Obviously not going to get the benefits of low emissions / zero emissions stuff - but will save money on fuel.
I really dont see the death of ICE though, not yet at least. There are far too many people in this situation to signal the death of ICE cars for the moment. 5-10 years time it will be different, but if she wants something relatively modern or new, just get one with a rock solid warranty, dont overspend and keep it for 3-4 years and dump it when it gets to the end of it. Dont need to commit to something for an overly long period - just prepare to switch later when the public charging network is better and ubiquitous.
To be honest, I have always considered at home charging being essential for a BEV. If you cant charge at home (could be a charging station in the apartment block or something too), it does seriously limit their usability. Of course, you can offset this with charging at work, but relying 100% on the public charging network, that might be a challenge.
PHEV might be a good choice since they are pretty economical overall, but you really need to charge them at some point to get their real benefit. For example, 20 miles per day would be ideal for a PHEV if you could charge at home - top up at home, run on electricity for local trips and then maximize EV usage. If that isnt an opportunity, even a modern PHEV with 30 miles range or so is going to reduce its advantages.
Which leaves ICE or hybrid-ICE like a Prius. Have to think that this is probably the better option. An optimized car that can be efficient while on ICE but utilize a hybrid system is going to be pretty economical around town but isnt limited by range. As much as I dislike the Prius, they will get 40+MPG around town and dont need charging etc. Just get in and drive. Obviously not going to get the benefits of low emissions / zero emissions stuff - but will save money on fuel.
I really dont see the death of ICE though, not yet at least. There are far too many people in this situation to signal the death of ICE cars for the moment. 5-10 years time it will be different, but if she wants something relatively modern or new, just get one with a rock solid warranty, dont overspend and keep it for 3-4 years and dump it when it gets to the end of it. Dont need to commit to something for an overly long period - just prepare to switch later when the public charging network is better and ubiquitous.
I don't really disagree with the home charging aspect, it's certainly what makes my BEV very manageable and really no effort. I simply put myself in the same use case and thought could I spend 30 mins every couple of weeks finding a public charger... I thought yes, but it could become tiresome very quickly especially if reliability of the infrastructure makes it even more of a chore. I do feel that both mine and hers usage probably puts us in the very low risk of disappointment category though. I should probably give it a go for a month or something and see if I still felt the same way
off_again said:
I really dont see the death of ICE though, not yet at least. There are far too many people in this situation to signal the death of ICE cars for the moment. 5-10 years time it will be different, but if she wants something relatively modern or new, just get one with a rock solid warranty, dont overspend and keep it for 3-4 years and dump it when it gets to the end of it. Dont need to commit to something for an overly long period - just prepare to switch later when the public charging network is better and ubiquitous.
I totally agree on the ICE front and if I took off my EV's are great rose tinted glasses for her without the home charging sticking with small capacity turbo ICE for one more cycle is in all honesty probably the sensible thing to do as I am guessing a HEV adds a premium that probably wouldn't pay for itself on local journeys in say 3 years?Everything is very much up in the air.
The Ev’s make sense from a self employed point of view as you can get some of them for peanuts really.
But other than that, I would avoid them personally.
Whether or not electric is the future is an unknown. But whichever way things go, it won’t be the tech we have now. I wouldn’t be buying one.
The Ev’s make sense from a self employed point of view as you can get some of them for peanuts really.
But other than that, I would avoid them personally.
Whether or not electric is the future is an unknown. But whichever way things go, it won’t be the tech we have now. I wouldn’t be buying one.
How many hybrids are both plug-in and self charging? The only one I know for certain is the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Plain self charging seems pretty futile because all of the energy, battery or petrol, is derived from petrol. You lug around a battery and IC engine plus the electric motor(s) only to have to charge the battery from the IC engine.
An Outlander, or similar, could get you to a city with ULEZ in force on petrol, drive you legally around the ULEZ on battery, and recharge itself on the way home to your city where you could again drive on battery only. When you get home you plug it in and repeat. Most local journeys would be on low cost home charged battery. Best of all worlds.
An Outlander, or similar, could get you to a city with ULEZ in force on petrol, drive you legally around the ULEZ on battery, and recharge itself on the way home to your city where you could again drive on battery only. When you get home you plug it in and repeat. Most local journeys would be on low cost home charged battery. Best of all worlds.
It depends on a lot of things.
Firstly, I would never advise anyone to spend actual money on a car unless they like it.
I think total reliance on public chargers would be just bonkers at this point.
If we are talking about only the next three years, then you can see that anything ULEZ compliant will be OK for most people.
Fuel economy won't matter.
So, just look at all the cars you vaguely like and weigh up the monthly cost against how much you like them.
If you're going to buy it and worry about residuals or the future of zero emission zones or you expect to keep it forever, that's a whole different game.
I would be tempted to suggest buying a cheap shed and upgrading the flat to one with a charging bay. Seriously.
Firstly, I would never advise anyone to spend actual money on a car unless they like it.
I think total reliance on public chargers would be just bonkers at this point.
If we are talking about only the next three years, then you can see that anything ULEZ compliant will be OK for most people.
Fuel economy won't matter.
So, just look at all the cars you vaguely like and weigh up the monthly cost against how much you like them.
If you're going to buy it and worry about residuals or the future of zero emission zones or you expect to keep it forever, that's a whole different game.
I would be tempted to suggest buying a cheap shed and upgrading the flat to one with a charging bay. Seriously.
If she likes her Hyundai Stonic right now, do they not put the drivetrain from the non plug-in Hyundai Ioniq in an SUV body?
I just had an Ioniq non plug-in and would rate them over any of the Toyota offerings, as you have a more conventional DCT 6-speed transmission instead of a whiney CVT. It consistently got over 65mpg (sometimes 75+) in the summer, dipping below 60 in the winter. Very reliable, if a bit boring, and being Korean it was well built with lots of bells and whistles.
I just had an Ioniq non plug-in and would rate them over any of the Toyota offerings, as you have a more conventional DCT 6-speed transmission instead of a whiney CVT. It consistently got over 65mpg (sometimes 75+) in the summer, dipping below 60 in the winter. Very reliable, if a bit boring, and being Korean it was well built with lots of bells and whistles.
if she just needs a local run-around car it's highly likely that a reasonably priced BEV, once all costs are taken in to consideration, will be at best as cheap or at worst a tiny bit more costly than any other option.
If it costs a tiny bit more then fine, it's worth it. She'll love the simplicity, quiet, smooth drive and the ability to pre-heat it on a winters morning so she doesn't have to freeze when she gets in or spend 5 minutes chipping ice away! These are all things that are highly likely to appeal to person that isn't really in to cars and just wants one that makes life comfortable and easy.
Also why take half measures? If she's worried about 'the death of ICE' or whatever, just go with that and suggest the BEV.
If it costs a tiny bit more then fine, it's worth it. She'll love the simplicity, quiet, smooth drive and the ability to pre-heat it on a winters morning so she doesn't have to freeze when she gets in or spend 5 minutes chipping ice away! These are all things that are highly likely to appeal to person that isn't really in to cars and just wants one that makes life comfortable and easy.
Also why take half measures? If she's worried about 'the death of ICE' or whatever, just go with that and suggest the BEV.
motco said:
How many hybrids are both plug-in and self charging? The only one I know for certain is the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Plain self charging seems pretty futile because all of the energy, battery or petrol, is derived from petrol. You lug around a battery and IC engine plus the electric motor(s) only to have to charge the battery from the IC engine.
All plug-in hybrids are self charging as well.Non plug-in hybrids do have their place. There's a reason so many taxis are Prius/Auris hybrids.
blank said:
motco said:
How many hybrids are both plug-in and self charging? The only one I know for certain is the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Plain self charging seems pretty futile because all of the energy, battery or petrol, is derived from petrol. You lug around a battery and IC engine plus the electric motor(s) only to have to charge the battery from the IC engine.
All plug-in hybrids are self charging as well.Non plug-in hybrids do have their place. There's a reason so many taxis are Prius/Auris hybrids.
Think about all of that energy that can be scavenged in stop / start traffic. While not seem significant, when you are braking in a succession of lights, there is a fair amount of energy that can be recovered and you arent using it to get moving again (ICE for that). From what I have seen with Toyota hybrids, all it takes is around 20 minutes of normal driving and you can recover quite a bit of energy to get your battery charged - not full and clearly will depend on what the situation is, but it can be surprising how quickly you can get that small battery recharged.
Constant speed on the motorway isnt ideal though. There is a lot more at play, but a current gen Prius is rated at 58 city / 53 highway MPG here in the US. To be honest, I dont know anyone who gets those numbers, but they get close (ish). That small battery, some clever electronics and some sensible engineering does make a difference, even when you have to take some energy from the ICE to charge the battery.
While it’s true that PHEVs that aren’t charged will behave similar to non plug-in HEVs, few PHEVs use efficient engines like the Atkinson ones that Toyota use.
My Golf GTE would manage mid 40s mpg if not charged (similar to a non hybrid 1.4 TSI), on a good run. Something like a Prius would do 65+ on the same trips.
My Golf GTE would manage mid 40s mpg if not charged (similar to a non hybrid 1.4 TSI), on a good run. Something like a Prius would do 65+ on the same trips.
sjg said:
While it’s true that PHEVs that aren’t charged will behave similar to non plug-in HEVs, few PHEVs use efficient engines like the Atkinson ones that Toyota use.
My Golf GTE would manage mid 40s mpg if not charged (similar to a non hybrid 1.4 TSI), on a good run. Something like a Prius would do 65+ on the same trips.
Since the Prius sold well in the US, there are a lot of really high mileage ones kicking around with effectively dead batteries (or seriously limited), so much so that there are third-party companies that can replace and even upgrade them! However, a dead battery Prius will be particularly bad on fuel. Seen reports of sub 40MPG when you are just using the ICE to run the car. That little battery does make a difference.My Golf GTE would manage mid 40s mpg if not charged (similar to a non hybrid 1.4 TSI), on a good run. Something like a Prius would do 65+ on the same trips.
Damn, must stop looking:
https://projectlithium.com/
$2,100 for an upgrade and over double the overall power? Nice! It is still a hybrid and hardly the most interesting car in the world, but my geek side thinks that this is kinda cool.
Amateurish said:
I wouldn't buy BEV without home charging. Not yet, anyway.
Agreed to disagree. Home charging make it possible to do 50k miles/year without ever stopping along the road for a recharge.
However, as the OP pointed out, in her case it might mean 1-2h recharging every week. IF she can easily do that at one of her stops (shop/coffee shop/salon/gym/family/...), integrate that in her weekly routine, it can be more convenient for her than filling up with petrol once a month.
I'd say it's a money game at this point. Most cars that will work for her have some sort of petrol equivalent, the premium on EVs is going down but they are still usually amongst the better equipped cars.
Last time I checked the base Golf is just 3k cheaper than a base ID3. If you want an automatic, you're already closing that gap. If you're buying new, I'd think long and hard before getting a car like that that isn't a full EV.
A Mokka would be great, look good and available in petrol and EV trim to make a pretty even comparison. As far as I can tell, the cheapest Mokka you don't have to change gears in yourself... Is the electric one?
Edited by ZesPak on Monday 28th March 21:39
sjg said:
While it’s true that PHEVs that aren’t charged will behave similar to non plug-in HEVs, few PHEVs use efficient engines like the Atkinson ones that Toyota use.
My Golf GTE would manage mid 40s mpg if not charged (similar to a non hybrid 1.4 TSI), on a good run. Something like a Prius would do 65+ on the same trips.
It's funny cos the 1.5 Evo engined Golf will easily exceed 50mpg without all of the electrical gubbins, just by virtue of being a more modern, more efficient engine. Yes it's not exactly sporty but the GTE won't set the world on fire either, but it's supposed to be the economical one...My Golf GTE would manage mid 40s mpg if not charged (similar to a non hybrid 1.4 TSI), on a good run. Something like a Prius would do 65+ on the same trips.
C.A.R. said:
It's funny cos the 1.5 Evo engined Golf will easily exceed 50mpg without all of the electrical gubbins, just by virtue of being a more modern, more efficient engine.
Or... the GTE gets the same economy as the 1.5 econobox while being 100hp up?Not a bad achievement for some electrical gubbins tbh.
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