Can an employer ban face masks
Discussion
Hi, quick employment law question please.
Situation: my wife works in a nursery with around 16 two to three year olds in the south of England. A couple of weeks ago, there was a COVID outbreak in the nursery, about half the staff were off sick, and some of them came back to work, clearly still very sick, coughing, sneezing and many symptoms.
Clearly, they work in an enclosed space with a large number of toddlers and other staff.
My wife put on her face masks to protect herself - and others - but was told by the head of the nursery that masks were banned and she was nt allowed to wear one.
As a result, she now has COVID, and has been sick in bed quite poorly for over 10 days now: high fever, fierce sore throat, constant coughing etc. We have now had to cancel a trip to Thailand, have lost well over GBP1,000 in test fees, quarantine notel etc (Insurance are covering the flight but not all the extras) and I now have a very sick wife.
My question - is the employer allowed to ban face masks like this? There is nothing in her contract that says either way that I can find.
Many thanks
LIA
Situation: my wife works in a nursery with around 16 two to three year olds in the south of England. A couple of weeks ago, there was a COVID outbreak in the nursery, about half the staff were off sick, and some of them came back to work, clearly still very sick, coughing, sneezing and many symptoms.
Clearly, they work in an enclosed space with a large number of toddlers and other staff.
My wife put on her face masks to protect herself - and others - but was told by the head of the nursery that masks were banned and she was nt allowed to wear one.
As a result, she now has COVID, and has been sick in bed quite poorly for over 10 days now: high fever, fierce sore throat, constant coughing etc. We have now had to cancel a trip to Thailand, have lost well over GBP1,000 in test fees, quarantine notel etc (Insurance are covering the flight but not all the extras) and I now have a very sick wife.
My question - is the employer allowed to ban face masks like this? There is nothing in her contract that says either way that I can find.
Many thanks
LIA
Employers have a duty of care, under employment legislation.
That requires them to take practical and reasonable steps to keep staff and the public safe.
Whether you believe that masks would have helped is not the issue.
Most employers insist on PPE when it's clear that not doing so would lead them towards being accused of not taking enough care.
Is it clear that the employer is at fault here? Well they didn't protect themselves or thier insurance company. Does that mean you'd win in a civil case?
Maybe. Maybe not.
That requires them to take practical and reasonable steps to keep staff and the public safe.
Whether you believe that masks would have helped is not the issue.
Most employers insist on PPE when it's clear that not doing so would lead them towards being accused of not taking enough care.
Is it clear that the employer is at fault here? Well they didn't protect themselves or thier insurance company. Does that mean you'd win in a civil case?
Maybe. Maybe not.
caziques said:
Personally I doubt face masks prevent people getting covid, and they certainly don't reduce the symptoms.
Perhaps a mask would have have prevented it.
Only a court could make a decision, and whatever the outcome it would be expensive and mentally draining.
Put it behind you.
If it were me, I'd be finding a new job, and when I resigned make it clear why. I wouldn't be working for an employer who didn't care enough. If I could afford to I'd resign without a job to go to. Perhaps a mask would have have prevented it.
Only a court could make a decision, and whatever the outcome it would be expensive and mentally draining.
Put it behind you.
You have to remember though that the risk assessment has to be taken in context of the job and many other factors.
Firstly, with education and care of young child there is a good reason to consider if they are appropriate. There is plenty of evidence to show that younger children’s social development is effected by face coverings.
Secondly you would have to show that she caught covid in work, which was was difficult with healthcare workers at the high of the pandemic when strict distancing rules were in place.
Finally, you would have to show that it is unreasonable or negligent to risk exposing someone to the possibility of catching covid. This is likely to fail, just as it would if catching flu, norovirus, chicken pox or one of the many other viruses children spread all over the place.
Firstly, with education and care of young child there is a good reason to consider if they are appropriate. There is plenty of evidence to show that younger children’s social development is effected by face coverings.
Secondly you would have to show that she caught covid in work, which was was difficult with healthcare workers at the high of the pandemic when strict distancing rules were in place.
Finally, you would have to show that it is unreasonable or negligent to risk exposing someone to the possibility of catching covid. This is likely to fail, just as it would if catching flu, norovirus, chicken pox or one of the many other viruses children spread all over the place.
livinginasia said:
Hi, quick employment law question please.
Situation: my wife works in a nursery with around 16 two to three year olds in the south of England. A couple of weeks ago, there was a COVID outbreak in the nursery, about half the staff were off sick, and some of them came back to work, clearly still very sick, coughing, sneezing and many symptoms.
Clearly, they work in an enclosed space with a large number of toddlers and other staff.
My wife put on her face masks to protect herself - and others - but was told by the head of the nursery that masks were banned and she was nt allowed to wear one.
As a result, she now has COVID, and has been sick in bed quite poorly for over 10 days now: high fever, fierce sore throat, constant coughing etc. We have now had to cancel a trip to Thailand, have lost well over GBP1,000 in test fees, quarantine notel etc (Insurance are covering the flight but not all the extras) and I now have a very sick wife.
My question - is the employer allowed to ban face masks like this? There is nothing in her contract that says either way that I can find.
Many thanks
LIA
What outcome are you looking for OP?Situation: my wife works in a nursery with around 16 two to three year olds in the south of England. A couple of weeks ago, there was a COVID outbreak in the nursery, about half the staff were off sick, and some of them came back to work, clearly still very sick, coughing, sneezing and many symptoms.
Clearly, they work in an enclosed space with a large number of toddlers and other staff.
My wife put on her face masks to protect herself - and others - but was told by the head of the nursery that masks were banned and she was nt allowed to wear one.
As a result, she now has COVID, and has been sick in bed quite poorly for over 10 days now: high fever, fierce sore throat, constant coughing etc. We have now had to cancel a trip to Thailand, have lost well over GBP1,000 in test fees, quarantine notel etc (Insurance are covering the flight but not all the extras) and I now have a very sick wife.
My question - is the employer allowed to ban face masks like this? There is nothing in her contract that says either way that I can find.
Many thanks
LIA
caziques said:
Personally I doubt face masks prevent people getting covid
Despite what the covid nutters say there is loads of evidence and research now that it does reduce transmission. There is a big difference in face coverings and masks and quality as well. The UK Gov policy 'living with it' crystallised - 10 days of illness and direct cash loss.
The employer sounds like a dick in this case, as someone likened it to norovirus or others, "nursery bans handwashing" thread would be equally bonkers to me.
caziques said:
Personally I doubt face masks prevent people getting covid, and they certainly don't reduce the symptoms.
Perhaps a mask would have have prevented it.
Only a court could make a decision, and whatever the outcome it would be expensive and mentally draining.
Put it behind you.
Thanks - the question wasn't around whether facemarks work, it was around duty of care to employees. Thanks though.Perhaps a mask would have have prevented it.
Only a court could make a decision, and whatever the outcome it would be expensive and mentally draining.
Put it behind you.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Thank you - I will ask her to seek out the covid risk assessment, thats a great suggestion. Not too worried about her being seen as "difficult" as they are desperate for staff (as are other nurseries around here) - its extremely hard work for minimum wage, she does it as she loves the children, not for the money. Thanks so much.Pit Pony said:
If it were me, I'd be finding a new job, and when I resigned make it clear why. I wouldn't be working for an employer who didn't care enough. If I could afford to I'd resign without a job to go to.
Thank you - she certainly doesn't need the money, and she is definitely considering this option seriously.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Exactly.A suitable and sufficient RA is your friend here.
The RA should have been shared with all employees and a record kept of any additional training required. For example, correct handwashing, surface hygiene and use and disposal of the correct type of face-masks and any other PPE identified.
Maybe an updated COSHH assessment is needed on any new hand-washing soaps and surface disinfectants too.
There should also be a comprehensive and well understood policy of mandatory return to work LF testing and suitable records kept.
BertBert said:
What outcome are you looking for OP?
Honestly, just for peace of mind. I am not going to sue them, or ask them to pay for our expenses, I am just trying to clarify in my own mind whether the employer is a dick, or whether they are quite within their rights to enforce this rule and are quite correct.Other nurseries around here allow staff to wear PPE if they want to, but not this one.
I just have no idea what the duty of care rules are in the UK around these types of things.
Thanks again
Electro1980 said:
You have to remember though that the risk assessment has to be taken in context of the job and many other factors.
Firstly, with education and care of young child there is a good reason to consider if they are appropriate. There is plenty of evidence to show that younger children’s social development is effected by face coverings.
Secondly you would have to show that she caught covid in work, which was was difficult with healthcare workers at the high of the pandemic when strict distancing rules were in place.
Finally, you would have to show that it is unreasonable or negligent to risk exposing someone to the possibility of catching covid. This is likely to fail, just as it would if catching flu, norovirus, chicken pox or one of the many other viruses children spread all over the place.
Yes, quite agree, its impossible to prove it. However we were due to fly on the Sunday, I kept away from my office in London all week, and my wife didn't go anywhere at all apart from to the nursery that week. No shops, literally home and work for her. 50% of the staff were off with Covid, kids were off with Covid and she sat in a closed room for 3 days with 16 kids and staff who were coughing and sneezing.Firstly, with education and care of young child there is a good reason to consider if they are appropriate. There is plenty of evidence to show that younger children’s social development is effected by face coverings.
Secondly you would have to show that she caught covid in work, which was was difficult with healthcare workers at the high of the pandemic when strict distancing rules were in place.
Finally, you would have to show that it is unreasonable or negligent to risk exposing someone to the possibility of catching covid. This is likely to fail, just as it would if catching flu, norovirus, chicken pox or one of the many other viruses children spread all over the place.
It's quite clear where she got it from - but impossible to prove it.
Had I know it was that bad over there, I would have stopped her going but I would have already been too late sadly.
Thanks !
I think anyone should be allowed to wear a mask at work.
By the same token schools and nurseries are a hotbed for bugs and viruses.
Did your wife have a positive covid test ? It sounds like it may have been a bad cold which by all accounts is rife at the moment and not uncommon in her working environment
By the same token schools and nurseries are a hotbed for bugs and viruses.
Did your wife have a positive covid test ? It sounds like it may have been a bad cold which by all accounts is rife at the moment and not uncommon in her working environment
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