Purchase advice
Discussion
Hi guys, been researching 997.2s C2/4 and 997.1 Turbos - which seem to range from £40K (private) to £65K (Turbo/dealer).
Out of interest, as buyers - what would turn you off the car from the list below
1. There is service history (meaning book stamped) but no or hardly any invoices of previous work / repairs done to the car?
2. Stone chips all over the bonnet/bumper (most of the examples had these)
3. More than let's say 4 owners for a 10 year old plus car?
4. History of people owning the car for a year or less and reselling?
5. For a Turbo, carbon ceramic brakes (cost to replace seems really high and they start going from 60-80K miles which these cars have).
All of the above assumes you are buying from a reputable dealer, or have done a pre purchase inspection.
Another question - if you assume that dealers are mostly controlling 911 stock - and they have a premium per car of £8K gross (net is less whatever they have to spend on the car) - when you combine this with expected maintenance/repairs for the first year - and assuming prices stay flattish (as opposed to going up 10-20% in Covid markets) - then you are looking at a first year cost of £8K dealership premium + £1-2K spend (buying from a good dealership should mean your cost is lower than the normal let's say average £2-3K per annum) so £9-10K.
So when dealers keep telling me these cars are going to hold their value (especially they talk say this about 997.1 Turbos), you actually need a price rise of 10-20% over a year or two just to break even really.
This happened during Covid (Turbos seem to have gone up £15-20K, and 997.2s around £5-10K) and maybe again in another 5-10 years when these cars become rarer classics, But in the next couple of years which seems to be how long each owner tends to hold these cars?
Just wondering about your views ... keeping in mind this depends if you bought around 2019 vs buying in today's market.
Out of interest, as buyers - what would turn you off the car from the list below
1. There is service history (meaning book stamped) but no or hardly any invoices of previous work / repairs done to the car?
2. Stone chips all over the bonnet/bumper (most of the examples had these)
3. More than let's say 4 owners for a 10 year old plus car?
4. History of people owning the car for a year or less and reselling?
5. For a Turbo, carbon ceramic brakes (cost to replace seems really high and they start going from 60-80K miles which these cars have).
All of the above assumes you are buying from a reputable dealer, or have done a pre purchase inspection.
Another question - if you assume that dealers are mostly controlling 911 stock - and they have a premium per car of £8K gross (net is less whatever they have to spend on the car) - when you combine this with expected maintenance/repairs for the first year - and assuming prices stay flattish (as opposed to going up 10-20% in Covid markets) - then you are looking at a first year cost of £8K dealership premium + £1-2K spend (buying from a good dealership should mean your cost is lower than the normal let's say average £2-3K per annum) so £9-10K.
So when dealers keep telling me these cars are going to hold their value (especially they talk say this about 997.1 Turbos), you actually need a price rise of 10-20% over a year or two just to break even really.
This happened during Covid (Turbos seem to have gone up £15-20K, and 997.2s around £5-10K) and maybe again in another 5-10 years when these cars become rarer classics, But in the next couple of years which seems to be how long each owner tends to hold these cars?
Just wondering about your views ... keeping in mind this depends if you bought around 2019 vs buying in today's market.
Personally, I like to see a wad of invoices from a specialist documenting what has and what hasn't been done, rather than a book of stamps.
Similarly, an enthusiast owner that has pampered it over many years is preferred, but it's not unusual that these have several owners.
Stone chips can be used as a bargaining tool and you get to choose who does the job properly, rather than a bad blow over for resale.
But I wouldn't discount a car based on any of these criteria individually, assess the car, the current owner, current condition, service history, inspection and price as a whole and go with what feels right.
Good luck and happy shopping.
Similarly, an enthusiast owner that has pampered it over many years is preferred, but it's not unusual that these have several owners.
Stone chips can be used as a bargaining tool and you get to choose who does the job properly, rather than a bad blow over for resale.
But I wouldn't discount a car based on any of these criteria individually, assess the car, the current owner, current condition, service history, inspection and price as a whole and go with what feels right.
Good luck and happy shopping.
Brutal honesty is I believe most cars are over valued and iwll likely drop back a bit. 10 year old or older tends to have less volatility as they get bought up by hobiests who plan to keep them longer term.
Take your mind off the price and accept that it's a toy and requires money to play. You need to decide how much you are willing to lose or pay in running costs, if you can't stomach of potentially over 20% of the value as a depreciation and running cost then probably hold off buying.
Take your mind off the price and accept that it's a toy and requires money to play. You need to decide how much you are willing to lose or pay in running costs, if you can't stomach of potentially over 20% of the value as a depreciation and running cost then probably hold off buying.
Mine has plenty of stone chips on the front, just what happens to these cars. Maintenance is the key thing, making sure the 12 year service has been done (mine was £4K of work), coolant pipes, two front radiators, suspension etc etc has been looked at. But also remember the 997.2 didn’t sell in the volumes you’d expect because of the global recession at the time. Happy hunting!
Edited by Gregmitchell on Thursday 7th April 09:51
romeodelta said:
Personally, I like to see a wad of invoices from a specialist documenting what has and what hasn't been done, rather than a book of stamps.
Similarly, an enthusiast owner that has pampered it over many years is preferred, but it's not unusual that these have several owners.
Stone chips can be used as a bargaining tool and you get to choose who does the job properly, rather than a bad blow over for resale.
But I wouldn't discount a car based on any of these criteria individually, assess the car, the current owner, current condition, service history, inspection and price as a whole and go with what feels right.
Good luck and happy shopping.
Thanks for the feedback... yeah this seems to be the rule of thumb with buying older Porsches, most important is the current condition and state and the bonus is a good ownership history. It does feel like cars change hands really quickly compared to some other brands.Similarly, an enthusiast owner that has pampered it over many years is preferred, but it's not unusual that these have several owners.
Stone chips can be used as a bargaining tool and you get to choose who does the job properly, rather than a bad blow over for resale.
But I wouldn't discount a car based on any of these criteria individually, assess the car, the current owner, current condition, service history, inspection and price as a whole and go with what feels right.
Good luck and happy shopping.
f1ten said:
Brutal honesty is I believe most cars are over valued and iwll likely drop back a bit. 10 year old or older tends to have less volatility as they get bought up by hobiests who plan to keep them longer term.
Take your mind off the price and accept that it's a toy and requires money to play. You need to decide how much you are willing to lose or pay in running costs, if you can't stomach of potentially over 20% of the value as a depreciation and running cost then probably hold off buying.
Yeah the problem is I am comparing buying a car like this, to buying a regular normal depreciating car like lets say a BMW or Mercedes mainstream model. With these you will probably lose 20% of the value too.Take your mind off the price and accept that it's a toy and requires money to play. You need to decide how much you are willing to lose or pay in running costs, if you can't stomach of potentially over 20% of the value as a depreciation and running cost then probably hold off buying.
Gregmitchell said:
Mine has plenty of stone chips on the front, just what happens to these cars. Maintenance is the key thing, making sure the 12 year service has been done (mine was £4K of work), coolant pipes, two front radiators, suspension etc etc has been looked at. But also remember the 997.2 didn’t sell in the volumes you’d expect because of the global recession at the time. Happy hunting!
Yep thanks I have been keeping a note of all this... the specialists claim they sort everything that needs sorting and give you an in house warranty of 6-12 months. Obviously they charge more for their cars too in return. cheersEdited by Gregmitchell on Thursday 7th April 09:51
hrp123 said:
Hi guys, been researching 997.2s C2/4 and 997.1 Turbos - which seem to range from £40K (private) to £65K (Turbo/dealer).
Out of interest, as buyers - what would turn you off the car from the list below
1. There is service history (meaning book stamped) but no or hardly any invoices of previous work / repairs done to the car?
2. Stone chips all over the bonnet/bumper (most of the examples had these)
3. More than let's say 4 owners for a 10 year old plus car?
4. History of people owning the car for a year or less and reselling?
5. For a Turbo, carbon ceramic brakes (cost to replace seems really high and they start going from 60-80K miles which these cars have).
Out of these, ony 5 would be an instant deal breaker for me. Why take the risk if you can buy one with regular steel brakes? I know that others disagree on this one, but I have forgotten why. Out of interest, as buyers - what would turn you off the car from the list below
1. There is service history (meaning book stamped) but no or hardly any invoices of previous work / repairs done to the car?
2. Stone chips all over the bonnet/bumper (most of the examples had these)
3. More than let's say 4 owners for a 10 year old plus car?
4. History of people owning the car for a year or less and reselling?
5. For a Turbo, carbon ceramic brakes (cost to replace seems really high and they start going from 60-80K miles which these cars have).
Re. 2, I might actually get suspicious if the bumper is pristine. Was it replaced after a crash?
Firstly no decent dealer would sell you a car covered in stone chips surely they should repair before sale ? But as said I would smell something rotten if a car didn't have stone chips.
Service history but lack of paperwork probably not an issue given the fact it had numerous owners and therefore paperwork like that tends to get lost
Number of owners not sure about...you expect ferrari and lambo and gt3 cars to have multiple owners as many people buy them and do 1000 mile sin a year and realize what a waste of money that is...but a 997 turbo doesn't fit onto that category ,they get used daily so I would expect less owners..but 4 isn't a lot given the age I suppose.
The brakes..get a report on them if you can ,they can ruin you financially.
Service history but lack of paperwork probably not an issue given the fact it had numerous owners and therefore paperwork like that tends to get lost
Number of owners not sure about...you expect ferrari and lambo and gt3 cars to have multiple owners as many people buy them and do 1000 mile sin a year and realize what a waste of money that is...but a 997 turbo doesn't fit onto that category ,they get used daily so I would expect less owners..but 4 isn't a lot given the age I suppose.
The brakes..get a report on them if you can ,they can ruin you financially.
Fink-Nottle said:
hrp123 said:
Hi guys, been researching 997.2s C2/4 and 997.1 Turbos - which seem to range from £40K (private) to £65K (Turbo/dealer).
Out of interest, as buyers - what would turn you off the car from the list below
1. There is service history (meaning book stamped) but no or hardly any invoices of previous work / repairs done to the car?
2. Stone chips all over the bonnet/bumper (most of the examples had these)
3. More than let's say 4 owners for a 10 year old plus car?
4. History of people owning the car for a year or less and reselling?
5. For a Turbo, carbon ceramic brakes (cost to replace seems really high and they start going from 60-80K miles which these cars have).
Out of these, ony 5 would be an instant deal breaker for me. Why take the risk if you can buy one with regular steel brakes? I know that others disagree on this one, but I have forgotten why. Out of interest, as buyers - what would turn you off the car from the list below
1. There is service history (meaning book stamped) but no or hardly any invoices of previous work / repairs done to the car?
2. Stone chips all over the bonnet/bumper (most of the examples had these)
3. More than let's say 4 owners for a 10 year old plus car?
4. History of people owning the car for a year or less and reselling?
5. For a Turbo, carbon ceramic brakes (cost to replace seems really high and they start going from 60-80K miles which these cars have).
Re. 2, I might actually get suspicious if the bumper is pristine. Was it replaced after a crash?
I think it is not uncommon to get the bumper painted but a much bigger job to start blending in the bonnet, wings etc. This was the problem with the one I saw yesterday. The dealer offered to have the bonnet sprayed but I wouldn't trust a bodyshop I didn't know.
g7jhp said:
Go and see a few so you get a feel for good and bad cars.
Know the spec you want, but be prepared to compromise on items e.g. seats, colour (anything like wheels are changeable).
Try the reputable indies - 911 Virgin, RSJ etc
Buy on condition.
Yep I think that is right, condition is key. Have seen a few now though and haven't yet come across one that is exceptionally pristine.Know the spec you want, but be prepared to compromise on items e.g. seats, colour (anything like wheels are changeable).
Try the reputable indies - 911 Virgin, RSJ etc
Buy on condition.
franki68 said:
Firstly no decent dealer would sell you a car covered in stone chips surely they should repair before sale ? But as said I would smell something rotten if a car didn't have stone chips.
Service history but lack of paperwork probably not an issue given the fact it had numerous owners and therefore paperwork like that tends to get lost
Number of owners not sure about...you expect ferrari and lambo and gt3 cars to have multiple owners as many people buy them and do 1000 mile sin a year and realize what a waste of money that is...but a 997 turbo doesn't fit onto that category ,they get used daily so I would expect less owners..but 4 isn't a lot given the age I suppose.
The brakes..get a report on them if you can ,they can ruin you financially.
Actually interestingly it is the 997 turbos I have seen that have all had quite a few owners. Yeah the dealers all paint in the stone chips but it is definitely much more visible on a lighter paint.Service history but lack of paperwork probably not an issue given the fact it had numerous owners and therefore paperwork like that tends to get lost
Number of owners not sure about...you expect ferrari and lambo and gt3 cars to have multiple owners as many people buy them and do 1000 mile sin a year and realize what a waste of money that is...but a 997 turbo doesn't fit onto that category ,they get used daily so I would expect less owners..but 4 isn't a lot given the age I suppose.
The brakes..get a report on them if you can ,they can ruin you financially.
f1ten said:
Brutal honesty is I believe most cars are over valued and iwll likely drop back a bit. 10 year old or older tends to have less volatility as they get bought up by hobiests who plan to keep them longer term.
Take your mind off the price and accept that it's a toy and requires money to play. You need to decide how much you are willing to lose or pay in running costs, if you can't stomach of potentially over 20% of the value as a depreciation and running cost then probably hold off buying.
I'd tend to agree with the above. If you worry about how much the car is going to be in running costs, PCCB letting go and the inevitable maintenance these cars cost if you do it right then owning one won't be a pleasureable experience. I doubt you'll lose your shirt in depreciation but that will be based on how you look after it as the next owner will be asking the same questions on what will be an even older car.Take your mind off the price and accept that it's a toy and requires money to play. You need to decide how much you are willing to lose or pay in running costs, if you can't stomach of potentially over 20% of the value as a depreciation and running cost then probably hold off buying.
964Cup said:
Get an inspection.
This 100%I got one and for £410 I got a very detailed report and a phone call from the guy the same day + loads of high res photos of the mechanical bits.
Despite buying from a dealer (not Porsche) he identified around 2K worth of things that really should be done and the dealer could hardly refuse to get everything done in the advertised price. Money well spent (997.1) Also you then still have the report if you sell the car within a few years.
Armitage.Shanks said:
f1ten said:
Brutal honesty is I believe most cars are over valued and iwll likely drop back a bit. 10 year old or older tends to have less volatility as they get bought up by hobiests who plan to keep them longer term.
Take your mind off the price and accept that it's a toy and requires money to play. You need to decide how much you are willing to lose or pay in running costs, if you can't stomach of potentially over 20% of the value as a depreciation and running cost then probably hold off buying.
I'd tend to agree with the above. If you worry about how much the car is going to be in running costs, PCCB letting go and the inevitable maintenance these cars cost if you do it right then owning one won't be a pleasureable experience. I doubt you'll lose your shirt in depreciation but that will be based on how you look after it as the next owner will be asking the same questions on what will be an even older car.Take your mind off the price and accept that it's a toy and requires money to play. You need to decide how much you are willing to lose or pay in running costs, if you can't stomach of potentially over 20% of the value as a depreciation and running cost then probably hold off buying.
Slippydiff99 said:
964Cup said:
Get an inspection.
This 100%I got one and for £410 I got a very detailed report and a phone call from the guy the same day + loads of high res photos of the mechanical bits.
Despite buying from a dealer (not Porsche) he identified around 2K worth of things that really should be done and the dealer could hardly refuse to get everything done in the advertised price. Money well spent (997.1) Also you then still have the report if you sell the car within a few years.
hrp123 said:
Slippydiff99 said:
964Cup said:
Get an inspection.
This 100%I got one and for £410 I got a very detailed report and a phone call from the guy the same day + loads of high res photos of the mechanical bits.
Despite buying from a dealer (not Porsche) he identified around 2K worth of things that really should be done and the dealer could hardly refuse to get everything done in the advertised price. Money well spent (997.1) Also you then still have the report if you sell the car within a few years.
You do have to be prepared to walk away and consider the report free as a ‘sunk cost’ for this approach to make sense.
hrp123 said:
Fink-Nottle said:
hrp123 said:
Hi guys, been researching 997.2s C2/4 and 997.1 Turbos - which seem to range from £40K (private) to £65K (Turbo/dealer).
Out of interest, as buyers - what would turn you off the car from the list below
1. There is service history (meaning book stamped) but no or hardly any invoices of previous work / repairs done to the car?
2. Stone chips all over the bonnet/bumper (most of the examples had these)
3. More than let's say 4 owners for a 10 year old plus car?
4. History of people owning the car for a year or less and reselling?
5. For a Turbo, carbon ceramic brakes (cost to replace seems really high and they start going from 60-80K miles which these cars have).
Out of these, ony 5 would be an instant deal breaker for me. Why take the risk if you can buy one with regular steel brakes? I know that others disagree on this one, but I have forgotten why. Out of interest, as buyers - what would turn you off the car from the list below
1. There is service history (meaning book stamped) but no or hardly any invoices of previous work / repairs done to the car?
2. Stone chips all over the bonnet/bumper (most of the examples had these)
3. More than let's say 4 owners for a 10 year old plus car?
4. History of people owning the car for a year or less and reselling?
5. For a Turbo, carbon ceramic brakes (cost to replace seems really high and they start going from 60-80K miles which these cars have).
Re. 2, I might actually get suspicious if the bumper is pristine. Was it replaced after a crash?
I think it is not uncommon to get the bumper painted but a much bigger job to start blending in the bonnet, wings etc. This was the problem with the one I saw yesterday. The dealer offered to have the bonnet sprayed but I wouldn't trust a bodyshop I didn't know.
If the finances are going to worry you then avoid the turbos as these can eat money very quickly.
I did all my due diligence 5 years ago before buying one of the cheapest 911 around. Long story short the gearbox imploded and had to be replaced. Manual gearbox problems were not even on my list even though I thought I knew what I was doing. I now know a new basic simple manual gearbox from Porsche is 10 grand and lots of these cars get gearbox repairs or rebuilds costing anything from 4 grand upwards. If you browse eBay for used gearbox prices you'll get a feeling for the market. I'm pretty sure the Turbo uses a specific gearbox and it's even rarer and therefore probably a lot more expensive to buy used off places like eBay.
I still have my tatty 996 and I like that I can just use and abuse it without worrying about it's value. But I'm very delicate with the gear lever always.
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