997 GT3 geo at Center Gravity.
Discussion
I picked up my 997.1 GT3 in December, and have always felt the front end was a bit vague. I mostly put this down to a combination of Cup2s, cold and wet roads and 911 weight distribution, plus the fact that my other car is a track geo'd CSL which was running 3 degrees of negative front camber.
Having booked to take the GT3 to Spa and the 'ring next month, I wanted to get the geo tweaked and have the suspension given the once over, and having read so much about CG and enjoyed the recent Podcast Chris did with Colin Hoad, I booked it in.
The test drive proved my feelings of vagueness and once up on the ramps, Pete's suspicions were confirmed - the front end had toe out and very little negative camber, plus asymmetry between left and right.
Everything was thoroughly checked and tested and despite the fact that car has done 70k miles and spent a lot of time on track, everything was in good working order and a testament to how well it has been maintained by the previous owners.
Tweaking away while we all drank tea and ate biscuits, their depth of knowledge and love for what they do shone through. Another 997 was on the other ramp, having a full suspension refresh and I enjoyed watching Chris and Pete at work and chatting to the other owner.
4 hours after arriving, my car was rolled out of the workshop and we hopped in to experience the results.
Wow.
What a difference! The car now feels like how I imagined a GT3 should feel, to the point that I turned in too early for the first few corners as the responsiveness was on a different planet! All of the vagueness has gone and although the car tramlines ever so slightly due to the camber, I am used to this and think it's a very small compromise to live with on a car such as the GT3.
Can't wait to get the car on track now.
Having booked to take the GT3 to Spa and the 'ring next month, I wanted to get the geo tweaked and have the suspension given the once over, and having read so much about CG and enjoyed the recent Podcast Chris did with Colin Hoad, I booked it in.
The test drive proved my feelings of vagueness and once up on the ramps, Pete's suspicions were confirmed - the front end had toe out and very little negative camber, plus asymmetry between left and right.
Everything was thoroughly checked and tested and despite the fact that car has done 70k miles and spent a lot of time on track, everything was in good working order and a testament to how well it has been maintained by the previous owners.
Tweaking away while we all drank tea and ate biscuits, their depth of knowledge and love for what they do shone through. Another 997 was on the other ramp, having a full suspension refresh and I enjoyed watching Chris and Pete at work and chatting to the other owner.
4 hours after arriving, my car was rolled out of the workshop and we hopped in to experience the results.
Wow.
What a difference! The car now feels like how I imagined a GT3 should feel, to the point that I turned in too early for the first few corners as the responsiveness was on a different planet! All of the vagueness has gone and although the car tramlines ever so slightly due to the camber, I am used to this and think it's a very small compromise to live with on a car such as the GT3.
Can't wait to get the car on track now.
ATM said:
I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad.
Well, if they don't happen often there would not be a whole industry, including CofG, that checks for and corrects the problem. Second the changes are often subtle and missed if you have nothing to compare with (as is the case if it's your first GT3). Plus the OP did think something was awry.ATM said:
I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad.
If the OP thought the car was good with the exception of geo related issues, why wouldn’t he buy it?It’s not like there are thousands of these cars to choose from.
BrotherMouzone said:
ATM said:
I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad.
If the OP thought the car was good with the exception of geo related issues, why wouldn’t he buy it?It’s not like there are thousands of these cars to choose from.
I'm not questioning the OP
I'm confused how the PO could let the car get so bad. I've bought 2 x 996 cars and both had some toe out at the front and other discrepancies in much the same way as mentioned by the OP. So 2 out of 2 cars I have bought and both way out - not just slightly out. I'm genuinely interested. Perhaps its a healthy reminder to get my older car checked as I've had it now 5 years.
The deterioration is iterative - think boiling frog. Add to that, as RC1 says, not all GT3’s are track slags anyway (so would not want heaps of camber) and get checked very seldom, you can see why, easily.
When I had TVRs the high compression engines were prone to oil starvation on rearmost cam lobes. I had mine swapped at just 30k miles, after noting a drop off in power, even though I’d always warmed the engine up properly etc. The specialist garage was saying it was not uncommon to have customers unknowingly driving about with only 6 or 7 cylinders on full compression.
When I had TVRs the high compression engines were prone to oil starvation on rearmost cam lobes. I had mine swapped at just 30k miles, after noting a drop off in power, even though I’d always warmed the engine up properly etc. The specialist garage was saying it was not uncommon to have customers unknowingly driving about with only 6 or 7 cylinders on full compression.
ATM said:
I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad.
I'd say 80% of Ferraris over 7 years old are driving around on sub-standard (due to age) tyres and questionable geo set ups. With Porsche I suspect the percentage with old/substandard tyres is lower (primarily because the cars are more likely to actually be used) so probably/hopefully closer to 40-50%, but many will no doubt have less than perfect geometry, so there's still a lot of 996/997s driving around with sub-optimal geo set ups and ride heights.But one mustn't forget, the buyer demographic has changed massively over the past two and half decades, there's an ever increasing amount of badge jockeys driving the Stuttgart brand now, many of which won't appreciate just how adjustable their 911's suspension is, nor what a difference it makes to the way they drive.
And let's not forget the geo set up on your CSR was massively sub-optimal IIRC ?
ATM said:
I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad.
Not every geo you have done is as good as CG, I had a car done by Chris last year, I’d owned it for six months. Had previously had a geo at a well known Porsche specialist that people on here speak very highly of. To be fair they’d got the corner weights bang on (Chris said its extremely rare for a car to come in with them bang on) They’d got too much rake on the car which had resulted in a load of toe in on the rear wheels. How the car had been allowed out of the other specialist is beyond me having been educated by Chris. Once he’d worked his magic the car came alive….steering was so much lighter because the rear end was fighting steering inputs and is now a joy to drive. ATM said:
I can't understand how these things happen. How can someone buy a car like this which is so far out? Who is owning these cars and never having them checked. I just don't understand how they can get so bad.
It wasn't terrible before, just a bit vaguer than I'd expect a GT3 should be, especially when compared with my other car that has had a recent geo and felt very pointy in comparison. The guys at CG did say that it's amazing how many cars they get in where the drivers don't know something is wrong with it, or just think that's the way it's meant to be. I think a lot of people buy nice cars to cruise around and be seen in, rather than to actually drive properly (and there's nothing at all wrong with that, it's just not why I own nice cars).No secrets regarding my geo as it's how I like the car - everyone's tastes and requirements are different.
Front is -2.35 camber, +8.3 caster and +0.03 toe
Rear is -2.05 camber and +0.15 toe.
I'm running Cup 2s and plan to do 4-5 track days and at least 1 'ring trip per year. CG said that if I was running PS4S and not planning any track days, they'd recommend to be closer to factory geo, which is about -1.35 camber front and rear.
Rear ARB is full stiff, front one is mid setting.
Edited by Galahad on Monday 11th April 08:31
You have been given the Ronald Kussmaul (Weissach Chassis Guru/Factory Race Driver/Paris-Dakar Winner) settings pretty much. Makes for a very predictable and very easy to read car. Enjoy the "journey" - I have an E46 M3 as a second fun car to keep the miles off my 996.1 Club Sport and it's nice to have the contrast between the two platforms.
RiccardoG said:
Nice, I'm looking forward to having my Carrera 997 done soon!
Out of curiosity, has anyone else been asked to pay a deposit to book their car in at CG?
Personal view alertOut of curiosity, has anyone else been asked to pay a deposit to book their car in at CG?
If you just want a geo and have a fairly standard vanilla car then I'm not sure its worth paying CG £200 for a geo. Obviously if you want to then thats fine.
Trickier dampers with adjustable ride height, adjustable top mounts, adjustable suspension and adjustable anti roll bars all add to the mix and might make a CG session more worth while. But for a standard car and largely standard or basic bit of adjustment type geo I dont see the value.
Its also a nightmare getting a booking. I tried a few years ago and gave up after 3 attempts.
My geo place is open Saturday and you just arrive and queue. No bookings required. My mate recently took his car to CG to get his suspension checked over and he asked them about this geo place we have both used and CG said they do a good job so thats good enough for me. I dont want to mention them as it seems like I am trying to leech business for them which is not my intention. I'm just trying to highlight that a simpler car doesn't necessarily require the services of someone like CG if you just want a simple geo and nothing else.
BrotherMouzone said:
Seem to recall CG had a post on social recently, due to many cancellations. Might only apply to new customers.
Seems not unreasonable to me. There's just 2 ramps and 2 guys, so if anyone fails to turn up, it puts a decent dent in their revenue.They aren't like any ordinary, jobbing indie or garage where there will be long-term rebuild/refurb jobs to fall back onto.
ATM said:
Trickier dampers with adjustable ride height, adjustable top mounts, adjustable suspension and adjustable anti roll bars all add to the mix and might make a CG session more worth while. But for a standard car and largely standard or basic bit of adjustment type geo I dont see the value.
They transformed my 1973 911 which is a totally standard car with little of what you describe above. They transformed it despite it having been seen at another very well known Porsche specialist who are well known for working on cars with all the bells and whistles you describe above.With respect I'd completely disagree with your view. They've also done the suspension set up on my 991.2 GT3...did a great job with both
Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff