Consequences of opening bleed valve to push piston back in?
Consequences of opening bleed valve to push piston back in?
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Discussion

RR76

Original Poster:

107 posts

75 months

Tuesday 12th April 2022
quotequote all
I opened the bleed valve to allow me to wind the calliper piston back in after changing the pads, a small amount of fluid leaked out, maybe 5-15ml at a guess, difficult to say but looked small.

So will i likely get a pocket of air inside the calliper near the piston or just some air bubbles and do these air bubbles ever work their way back up to the reservoir?

I didn't bleed the brakes as i don't have the bleeder bottle and so far the brakes feel good no problems. Will i be ok just leaving it?

GreenV8S

31,023 posts

314 months

Tuesday 12th April 2022
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It shouldn't have been necessary. The fluid would normally be displaced back into the reservoir. As long as you haven't made the mistake of topping up the reservoir as the pads/shoes wore down, there will be space for it there.

You could easily have let air into the system. If so, it'll be there until it's bled out.

Did you clean, check for wear and regrease the brakes while they were apart? That's part of a normal brake service.

Do you know the age of the brake fluid? It doesn't last forever and will need replacing at some point.

Captain Answer

1,376 posts

217 months

Tuesday 12th April 2022
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Whats your resevoir level like now? If its low then top it up before you do anything more, if it's high then extract some of it with a turkey baster

It's likely you'll have let air in, you'll need to bleed them now either with an ezi-bleed (or similar) or using an assistant to operate the pedal

At least you know the bleed screw isn't so rusted or rounded it can't open wink

E-bmw

13,478 posts

182 months

Tuesday 12th April 2022
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It is always possible that you may have let air in.

It is also possible that you were lucky & didn't.

You shouldn't have needed to do that as the fluid will just go back to the reservoir when the piston is returned.

As you say the brakes feel good you may well have dodged a bit of a bullet, what is the reservoir level like now?

donkmeister

12,968 posts

130 months

Tuesday 12th April 2022
quotequote all
I used to own a Vauxhall Astra, and the Haynes manual actually advocated using a clamp in the brake flexi and using the nipple to bleed some fluid out whilst pushing the piston back in. I seem to recall it was something about seals in the master.

So it's a valid approach, with at least some pretty ordinary cars.

martygturner

2 posts

54 months

Tuesday 12th April 2022
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Unless you pushed the brake peddle down then released it when the nipple was open you will be fine...think of it like this when bleeding brakes you push the peddle down and hold, you did the same thing with the piston.

E-bmw

13,478 posts

182 months

Wednesday 13th April 2022
quotequote all
donkmeister said:
I used to own a Vauxhall Astra, and the Haynes manual actually advocated using a clamp in the brake flexi and using the nipple to bleed some fluid out whilst pushing the piston back in. I seem to recall it was something about seals in the master.
That doesn't make sense as the master cylinder piston is fully retracted leaving a route through to the reservoir therefore bypassing the master cylinder seals.

GreenV8S

31,023 posts

314 months

Wednesday 13th April 2022
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martygturner said:
Unless you pushed the brake peddle down then released it when the nipple was open you will be fine...think of it like this when bleeding brakes you push the peddle down and hold, you did the same thing with the piston.
If fluid came out and the system was not under pressure at the time then there was an opportunity for air to go in.

CarCrazyDad

4,280 posts

65 months

Wednesday 13th April 2022
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donkmeister said:
I used to own a Vauxhall Astra, and the Haynes manual actually advocated using a clamp in the brake flexi and using the nipple to bleed some fluid out whilst pushing the piston back in. I seem to recall it was something about seals in the master.

So it's a valid approach, with at least some pretty ordinary cars.
Doesn't seem valid to me

Maybe in 1980s....

Modern cars you surely just push pistons back, opening bleed nipple just introduces air.... and any fluid will be pushed back to fluid reservoir at point of retracting the pistons?

Will now need a full bleed

centralscot

66 posts

80 months

Wednesday 13th April 2022
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Its still very valid,m/c seals can and do flip .

chrisch77

893 posts

105 months

Wednesday 13th April 2022
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Nothing to do with the master cylinder seals, but it in my experience it is good idea to dump excess fluid out from the bleed nipple when you do a pad change, instead of pushing it back up the brake system, because these days we all have ABS pumps that don’t like displaced dirt that resides in the calliper. You only ever want to be pushing clean fluid ‘down’ through the braking system and not dirty fluid back up.

You may need to bleed the system afterwards, but you can but many easy bleed kits for the price of a refurbished ABS module!


E-bmw

13,478 posts

182 months

Wednesday 13th April 2022
quotequote all
centralscot said:
Its still very valid,m/c seals can and do flip .
Yes, they can & do, but not with the pedal in the relaxed position as any fluid will surely take the path of least resistance through the hole in the M/C bore into the reservoir.

AgentZ

301 posts

158 months

Wednesday 13th April 2022
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CarCrazyDad said:
donkmeister said:
I used to own a Vauxhall Astra, and the Haynes manual actually advocated using a clamp in the brake flexi and using the nipple to bleed some fluid out whilst pushing the piston back in. I seem to recall it was something about seals in the master.

So it's a valid approach, with at least some pretty ordinary cars.
Doesn't seem valid to me

Maybe in 1980s....

Modern cars you surely just push pistons back, opening bleed nipple just introduces air.... and any fluid will be pushed back to fluid reservoir at point of retracting the pistons?

Will now need a full bleed
Doing the pads on my dads C-Max is my next car job so have been doing my research and watching videos having never done it before and actually attaching a length of tube from the bleed nipple to a jar/bottle and cracking the nut half a turn while gently pushing the piston back is best practice (according to Pagid atleast) but very few garages/mechanics or even official dealers do it from what I've seen. One almost universal no-no when doing brakes that virtually all people do is use copper grease/paste when that dries out and reacts with alloy/steel causing corrosion rather than preventing it.

All great in theory.....I just hope I do a good (safe) job on my dads car!

donkmeister

12,968 posts

130 months

Thursday 14th April 2022
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CarCrazyDad said:
donkmeister said:
I used to own a Vauxhall Astra, and the Haynes manual actually advocated using a clamp in the brake flexi and using the nipple to bleed some fluid out whilst pushing the piston back in. I seem to recall it was something about seals in the master.

So it's a valid approach, with at least some pretty ordinary cars.
Doesn't seem valid to me

Maybe in 1980s....

Modern cars you surely just push pistons back, opening bleed nipple just introduces air.... and any fluid will be pushed back to fluid reservoir at point of retracting the pistons?

Will now need a full bleed
Turns out I still have the Haynes Manual in question.




liner33

10,861 posts

232 months

Thursday 14th April 2022
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Plenty of mechanics do release the bleed nipple when pushing the piston back , its unlikely to introduce air into the system

Old Merc

3,819 posts

197 months

Thursday 14th April 2022
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liner33 said:
Plenty of mechanics do release the bleed nipple when pushing the piston back , its unlikely to introduce air into the system
I used to open the bleed nipple at every pad change, made it easier to move the piston.
Afterwards I always gave the brakes a quick bleed. Never had a problem with all my years in the trade.

GreenV8S

31,023 posts

314 months

Thursday 14th April 2022
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Old Merc said:
Afterwards I always gave the brakes a quick bleed.
Would you be happy to do that without the quick bleed afterwards? I wouldn't.

Old Merc

3,819 posts

197 months

Thursday 14th April 2022
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GreenV8S said:
Old Merc said:
Afterwards I always gave the brakes a quick bleed.
Would you be happy to do that without the quick bleed afterwards? I wouldn't.
???? I said I always bled the brakes afterwards.

GreenV8S

31,023 posts

314 months

Thursday 14th April 2022
quotequote all
Old Merc said:
???? I said I always bled the brakes afterwards.
The OP said he didn't and asked whether that was a problem. Others have said it's fine and your reply also suggested that you thought it was an acceptable practice. I'm emphasizing that IMO it's only acceptable if the brakes are bled afterwards.

donkmeister

12,968 posts

130 months

Thursday 14th April 2022
quotequote all
GreenV8S said:
Old Merc said:
???? I said I always bled the brakes afterwards.
The OP said he didn't and asked whether that was a problem. Others have said it's fine and your reply also suggested that you thought it was an acceptable practice. I'm emphasizing that IMO it's only acceptable if the brakes are bled afterwards.
I'm struggling to understand how air gets into the system when the calliper is being pushed back in and the bleed nipple is at the top of the calliper.

Sure, if you open the nipple and just leave it open, without a hoseclamp on the flexi, then over hours/days/weeks it will syphon out, but surely that's going to drain the reservoir before it lets air into the calliper.

Don't misunderstand me, I know it's no great undertaking, but I've done both approaches (clamp and crack / just push it back) and never had evidence of air in the system (or knackered master cylinder seals) after either approach. I'm not convinced that exchanging a few teaspoons of fluid will do much for the cleanliness of the system (regardless of what my Haynes manual claims) but I suppose the real benefit to the clamp and crack is that you're exercising the nipples every time you change the pads, so less likely to end up with nipples corroded into the calliper from lack of use (had that... and it sheared off)