Informer/traitor/quisling…would that be you?
Discussion
Inspired by some stuff I was reading about Estonia during Second World War…got me thinking..
I knew a Cuban guy for a while, back in London. Pretty certain that he was was one of the people that worked for Cuban police: keeping an eye on and informing on people in his housing area.
You’ll find similar in almost any authoritarian regime or within a conflict.
Big issue in occupied France, East Germany, current China.
Secret services are always turning people, for money, via blackmail or for ideological reasons, on their own countryman.
It will be happening in Ukraine right now. Russians will be able to find Ukrainians to take up senior civil service roles. In an occupied region there will be people ready to snitch on their neighbours.
I do understand how members of a ‘community’ might not want to inform the police about bad actors within that grouping: one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.
I live in a country where just 60 years ago people used a purge on communists to settle old scores and gain land by denouncing a neighbour. As a nation these people are wonderful and kind, but given the right circumstances…..
I know we all think we would be heroic resistance leaders….but history shows thats not the case at all.
Given how keen some PHs are for reporting neighbours over bins and car tax etc. and given the numbers of people on here: some of you would, statistically, be that informer. Trading info with authorities/occupiers for some gain.
Would you be that person?
I knew a Cuban guy for a while, back in London. Pretty certain that he was was one of the people that worked for Cuban police: keeping an eye on and informing on people in his housing area.
You’ll find similar in almost any authoritarian regime or within a conflict.
Big issue in occupied France, East Germany, current China.
Secret services are always turning people, for money, via blackmail or for ideological reasons, on their own countryman.
It will be happening in Ukraine right now. Russians will be able to find Ukrainians to take up senior civil service roles. In an occupied region there will be people ready to snitch on their neighbours.
I do understand how members of a ‘community’ might not want to inform the police about bad actors within that grouping: one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.
I live in a country where just 60 years ago people used a purge on communists to settle old scores and gain land by denouncing a neighbour. As a nation these people are wonderful and kind, but given the right circumstances…..
I know we all think we would be heroic resistance leaders….but history shows thats not the case at all.
Given how keen some PHs are for reporting neighbours over bins and car tax etc. and given the numbers of people on here: some of you would, statistically, be that informer. Trading info with authorities/occupiers for some gain.
Would you be that person?
We all like to think we'd be the heroic resistance fighter, but the truth is most people would at the very least do what the regime told them to, or actively participate. Just take the lockdown, no I'm not comparing it to Nazi Germany, but if you'd told people governments around the world would be forcing businesses to close and people not allowed to leave their homes, you'd be laughed off as a tin foil lunatic. Yet it did, and it only worked because the vast majority complied, as with any dictatorship. In every country the Nazis conquered there were people who actively supported and fought for them, if they'd invaded Britain then beyond any doubt the same thing would have happened. People will do what is best for them in the given moment.
But history isn't black and white, in WW2 the Nazis were at first welcomed as liberators in parts of Eastern Europe, and one of the biggest mistakes they and the Japanese made was not capitalising on that. Such places had suffered appalling brutality under Stalin, and across Europe in general there were a lot of people with a legitimate reason to fear Communism. It's a very uncomfortable topic given current world events, but in places like Ukraine they actively participated in the Holocaust, but whilst I would never try and defend that, if people were given the choice between going to the front lines or rounding up helpless civilians then standing in a watch tower, it's what they're going to pick.
But history isn't black and white, in WW2 the Nazis were at first welcomed as liberators in parts of Eastern Europe, and one of the biggest mistakes they and the Japanese made was not capitalising on that. Such places had suffered appalling brutality under Stalin, and across Europe in general there were a lot of people with a legitimate reason to fear Communism. It's a very uncomfortable topic given current world events, but in places like Ukraine they actively participated in the Holocaust, but whilst I would never try and defend that, if people were given the choice between going to the front lines or rounding up helpless civilians then standing in a watch tower, it's what they're going to pick.
The last 2 years has been an eye opener, almost a revelation.
I once believed the foul things that happened in other countries, particularly in europe in the 1930s, could not possibly ever have happened here, that we bred a different type, fair minded and believers in fair play and justice, boy have i been proved wrong.
The petty tyrants wannabe dictators informants and their loud cheerleaders crawled out of the woodwork and showed their true selves in all it's disgusting form, they were here all along just itching for the chance to exert whatever little bit of power they might grab over others.
Politicians celebs media types it was expected from, more worrying was how quickly the state's apparatus including the police became politicised relishing their new roles.
Some rapid back pedalling more recently but too late, your showed yourselves and will never again be trusted.
More worrying though was the compliant and in many cases enthusiastic surrender of whole swathes of (particularly native) people to whatever was demanded of them by the above, disappointing is putting it mildly.
I once believed the foul things that happened in other countries, particularly in europe in the 1930s, could not possibly ever have happened here, that we bred a different type, fair minded and believers in fair play and justice, boy have i been proved wrong.
The petty tyrants wannabe dictators informants and their loud cheerleaders crawled out of the woodwork and showed their true selves in all it's disgusting form, they were here all along just itching for the chance to exert whatever little bit of power they might grab over others.
Politicians celebs media types it was expected from, more worrying was how quickly the state's apparatus including the police became politicised relishing their new roles.
Some rapid back pedalling more recently but too late, your showed yourselves and will never again be trusted.
More worrying though was the compliant and in many cases enthusiastic surrender of whole swathes of (particularly native) people to whatever was demanded of them by the above, disappointing is putting it mildly.
jdw100 said:
Would you be that person?
The vast majority of people would be that person. Whether you look at the old Stasi informers or the people grassing up their neighbours for having guests during COVID restrictions. All the same. Eyes down. Do not question. Do as your told. Point out the others.Enough of a chunk of society will do it for whatever means to actively or inadvertently help embed and sustain a regime when it suits their own ideals. Although we'd like to think that something like what happened in jdw100 land sixty years ago wouldn't happen again, the past two years in "developed" countries did show that there are some primal instincts in folk to be readily exploited, but technology available now doesn't really need the informer/traitor/quisling to do as much of the data gathering work. Everyone is feeding copious amounts of data willingly and actively into various data repositories daily. Probably the one big thing different now to even twenty years ago is social media, which provides a much more pervasive outlet for propaganda.
Edited by rodericb on Monday 18th April 09:46
You only have to look on social media to see countless people selling their souls for money and an endless stream of scammers out to make a quick buck with no conscience or concerns as to who they hurt.
There would be queues of people lining up to sign up for a few quid even if it meant selling their own down the drain.
"Money", in all its formats, is definitely is the root of all evil.
Who can you trust nowadays?
There would be queues of people lining up to sign up for a few quid even if it meant selling their own down the drain.
"Money", in all its formats, is definitely is the root of all evil.
Who can you trust nowadays?
I head this joke from a Frenchman:
In 1940 nobody knew anyone in the Resistance.
By 1942 a few knew someone in the Resistance.
By 1944 everyone knew someone in the Resitance.
By 1946 everyone had been in the Resistance!
People are hard wired to survive.
I just hope we never have to choose.
But for my own part I would toe the line of co-operation without crossing into collaboration.
In 1940 nobody knew anyone in the Resistance.
By 1942 a few knew someone in the Resistance.
By 1944 everyone knew someone in the Resitance.
By 1946 everyone had been in the Resistance!
People are hard wired to survive.
I just hope we never have to choose.
But for my own part I would toe the line of co-operation without crossing into collaboration.
Monkeylegend said:
You only have to look on social media to see countless people selling their souls for money and an endless stream of scammers out to make a quick buck with no conscience or concerns as to who they hurt.
There would be queues of people lining up to sign up for a few quid even if it meant selling their own down the drain.
"Money", in all its formats, is definitely is the root of all evil.
Who can you trust nowadays?
Hadn't thought about the social media side of things..There would be queues of people lining up to sign up for a few quid even if it meant selling their own down the drain.
"Money", in all its formats, is definitely is the root of all evil.
Who can you trust nowadays?
Smint said:
The last 2 years has been an eye opener, almost a revelation.
I once believed the foul things that happened in other countries, particularly in europe in the 1930s, could not possibly ever have happened here, that we bred a different type, fair minded and believers in fair play and justice, boy have i been proved wrong.
The petty tyrants wannabe dictators informants and their loud cheerleaders crawled out of the woodwork and showed their true selves in all it's disgusting form, they were here all along just itching for the chance to exert whatever little bit of power they might grab over others.
Politicians celebs media types it was expected from, more worrying was how quickly the state's apparatus including the police became politicised relishing their new roles.
Some rapid back pedalling more recently but too late, your showed yourselves and will never again be trusted.
More worrying though was the compliant and in many cases enthusiastic surrender of whole swathes of (particularly native) people to whatever was demanded of them by the above, disappointing is putting it mildly.
I once believed the foul things that happened in other countries, particularly in europe in the 1930s, could not possibly ever have happened here, that we bred a different type, fair minded and believers in fair play and justice, boy have i been proved wrong.
The petty tyrants wannabe dictators informants and their loud cheerleaders crawled out of the woodwork and showed their true selves in all it's disgusting form, they were here all along just itching for the chance to exert whatever little bit of power they might grab over others.
Politicians celebs media types it was expected from, more worrying was how quickly the state's apparatus including the police became politicised relishing their new roles.
Some rapid back pedalling more recently but too late, your showed yourselves and will never again be trusted.
More worrying though was the compliant and in many cases enthusiastic surrender of whole swathes of (particularly native) people to whatever was demanded of them by the above, disappointing is putting it mildly.
Demonstrated how easily the public can be herded via the media to carry out commands and parrot the government line,
Discount for cash.....
How do you feel about this.....Would you dob the supplier to HMRC?
Drug dealer/ grower activity?
Drink driver....report to police?
Dashcam footage of speeding/ bad driving sent to police?
There is an app/ scheme out there.
Who dobbed Boris and his partygoers? Grudges being enforced?
Suspicious activity with possible terrorism link?
Is there a line to cross for type of scenario?
How do you feel about this.....Would you dob the supplier to HMRC?
Drug dealer/ grower activity?
Drink driver....report to police?
Dashcam footage of speeding/ bad driving sent to police?
There is an app/ scheme out there.
Who dobbed Boris and his partygoers? Grudges being enforced?
Suspicious activity with possible terrorism link?
Is there a line to cross for type of scenario?
sospan said:
Discount for cash.....
How do you feel about this.....Would you dob the supplier to HMRC?
Drug dealer/ grower activity?
Drink driver....report to police?
Dashcam footage of speeding/ bad driving sent to police?
There is an app/ scheme out there.
Who dobbed Boris and his partygoers? Grudges being enforced?
Suspicious activity with possible terrorism link?
Is there a line to cross for type of scenario?
People can be extremely hypocritical. Any lawbreaking that "they" personally indulge in is fine/acceptable and should be ignored and not reported to the Police (sorry..."Gestapo"). Any lawbreaking they don't agree with is "absolutely wrong and MUST be reported and if the perpetrators don't like living in our western liberal democratic society they should FO".How do you feel about this.....Would you dob the supplier to HMRC?
Drug dealer/ grower activity?
Drink driver....report to police?
Dashcam footage of speeding/ bad driving sent to police?
There is an app/ scheme out there.
Who dobbed Boris and his partygoers? Grudges being enforced?
Suspicious activity with possible terrorism link?
Is there a line to cross for type of scenario?
Do I have a problem with reporting somebody who breaks the law? Absolutely not. Would I report somebody breaking the law? It depends purely on how serious i thought the offence was.
When some people make reference to Stasi/Gestapo they seem to not understand that unlike Nazi Germany we live in a democracy. If you think the UK is even remotely comparable to a Totalitarian state you need to give your head a wobble.
Countdown said:
People can be extremely hypocritical. Any lawbreaking that "they" personally indulge in is fine/acceptable and should be ignored and not reported to the Police (sorry..."Gestapo"). Any lawbreaking they don't agree with is "absolutely wrong and MUST be reported and if the perpetrators don't like living in our western liberal democratic society they should FO".
Do I have a problem with reporting somebody who breaks the law? Absolutely not. Would I report somebody breaking the law? It depends purely on how serious i thought the offence was.
When some people make reference to Stasi/Gestapo they seem to not understand that unlike Nazi Germany we live in a democracy. If you think the UK is even remotely comparable to a Totalitarian state you need to give your head a wobble.
I totally agree. Do I have a problem with reporting somebody who breaks the law? Absolutely not. Would I report somebody breaking the law? It depends purely on how serious i thought the offence was.
When some people make reference to Stasi/Gestapo they seem to not understand that unlike Nazi Germany we live in a democracy. If you think the UK is even remotely comparable to a Totalitarian state you need to give your head a wobble.
Anyone who thinks we are not living in a democracy should be put on some sort of list.
Exactly the sort of people we need to keep an eye on.
Next time I hear anyone comparing UK to Nazi Germany, I'll make a note.
jdw100 said:
I totally agree.
Anyone who thinks we are not living in a democracy should be put on some sort of list.
Exactly the sort of people we need to keep an eye on.
Next time I hear anyone comparing UK to Nazi Germany, I'll make a note.
Given that I haven't suggested any of those I'm not sure what you're "agreeing" with........Anyone who thinks we are not living in a democracy should be put on some sort of list.
Exactly the sort of people we need to keep an eye on.
Next time I hear anyone comparing UK to Nazi Germany, I'll make a note.
Countdown said:
jdw100 said:
I totally agree.
Anyone who thinks we are not living in a democracy should be put on some sort of list.
Exactly the sort of people we need to keep an eye on.
Next time I hear anyone comparing UK to Nazi Germany, I'll make a note.
Given that I haven't suggested any of those I'm not sure what you're "agreeing" with........Anyone who thinks we are not living in a democracy should be put on some sort of list.
Exactly the sort of people we need to keep an eye on.
Next time I hear anyone comparing UK to Nazi Germany, I'll make a note.
So you are saying that it is okay for people to make derogatory comments about our government?
Do other members of your family also believe that? Your friends? Have you had this type of discussion with colleagues at work?
with a less than pessimistic view of the dubious morality of most people [ including me ] i was intrigued by the recent revelation on who was responsible for snitching to the nazis on the location of the Frank family, I was not surprised by the
name of the traitor, what did surprise, and always has done, is of the dozens of folk who knew where they were, and the potential for loose tongues, that the people in the attic stayed hidden for as long as they actually did.
name of the traitor, what did surprise, and always has done, is of the dozens of folk who knew where they were, and the potential for loose tongues, that the people in the attic stayed hidden for as long as they actually did.
You only have to look at some of the Remain/Leave threads on here or stories in the newspapers. Or the covid/Lockdown situation.
I have some good Germans friends & they have said previously that if Germany had invaded Britain & assimilated us into the Nazi fold, we, the British would have made the Gestapo look like the Boy Scouts.
I quite believe it.
I have some good Germans friends & they have said previously that if Germany had invaded Britain & assimilated us into the Nazi fold, we, the British would have made the Gestapo look like the Boy Scouts.
I quite believe it.
Mercury00 said:
I don't get involved or care what other people do. During lockdown there was a bit of drama on the street because someone had people round and were sharing their hot tub with them. I couldn't care less, other people can do whatever they like.
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