MOT failure - uneconomical repair
Discussion
Hi all,
Just had my trusty old 2003 Honda CRV fail it's MOT largely due to rusted wheel arches and sills. Spoke to a garage about getting it welded and I was quoted north of £1000.
Guy at the garage advised it was an uneconomical repair and the best bet would be to scrap it.
Does he mean it's uneconomical simply because the cost is higher than the value of the car? Because to be honest, I'd rather spend the money and keep my car for a year or two longer than shell out £2k for a similar car to replace it.
Any similar experiences?
Just had my trusty old 2003 Honda CRV fail it's MOT largely due to rusted wheel arches and sills. Spoke to a garage about getting it welded and I was quoted north of £1000.
Guy at the garage advised it was an uneconomical repair and the best bet would be to scrap it.
Does he mean it's uneconomical simply because the cost is higher than the value of the car? Because to be honest, I'd rather spend the money and keep my car for a year or two longer than shell out £2k for a similar car to replace it.
Any similar experiences?
Yes, essentially they’re advising you it’s a waste of money to spend that much on a car that isn’t worth alot and may fail it’s next MOT on something equally as expensive, or worse something expensive else may fail sooner.
Obviously it’s completely down to you if you decide to proceed, they’re just offering an opinion.
Obviously it’s completely down to you if you decide to proceed, they’re just offering an opinion.
Depends very much on the extent of the rust.
Getting a corroded outer sill through an MOT is a walk in the park. Stick a patch over it, weld up the edges and re-present it. It might look a bit ugly, and the double layer of the patch with corrode again very quickly, but you’ve got another year on the road.
Doing a decent job is a fair bit harder - all depending on how you want it to look.
The last time I had a car fail this way, it was at the back end of the sill - getting an MOT took an hour with a Mig. A s
t repair, but MOT valid. Doing a decent job at a time when it suited me took a weekend.
Getting a corroded outer sill through an MOT is a walk in the park. Stick a patch over it, weld up the edges and re-present it. It might look a bit ugly, and the double layer of the patch with corrode again very quickly, but you’ve got another year on the road.
Doing a decent job is a fair bit harder - all depending on how you want it to look.
The last time I had a car fail this way, it was at the back end of the sill - getting an MOT took an hour with a Mig. A s
t repair, but MOT valid. Doing a decent job at a time when it suited me took a weekend. As others have said, depends on how bad the rust is and what the rest of the car is like. If it also has a list of advisories as long as your arm then I would just scrap it. If it is just a couple of small holes that need a patch and you can get another year out of it then it is worth doing.
Sounds to me from the quote the rust is pretty bad, and it is very likely to escalate once they start the job and uncover more nasties.
Sounds to me from the quote the rust is pretty bad, and it is very likely to escalate once they start the job and uncover more nasties.
I owned a car for 5 years which was technically a write off for the cost of the MOT test alone! (Cortina 2.0)
You could keep it going for another 20 years if you can be bothered - in this case either by finding someone who welds on the cheap, or learning how to do it yourself.
I didn't think rusty wheel arches is an MOT failure? Someone else can probably correct me on that.
You could keep it going for another 20 years if you can be bothered - in this case either by finding someone who welds on the cheap, or learning how to do it yourself.
I didn't think rusty wheel arches is an MOT failure? Someone else can probably correct me on that.
chrisch77 said:
The garage could also be trying to warn you that the bits they can't see are going to be as bad as the rusty bits they can see, so there is a risk of the job escalating once someone makes a start on repairs.
This is my feeling too, it's 19yrs old and they do have a bit of a rep for underbody rust.The highest priced 2003 CR-V on eBay is a 67k miler in reasonable condition at a dealer (so includes their margin) at £2495. They tend to start at about £1600. You have to ask if pumping a grand into a 19yo non-classic car is really worthwhile? It's really at end of designed life.
We have a similar vintage Honda FR-V that we're running into the ground. Currently on 130k miles, it breezes through every MOT but I'm always aware it could be one big bill away from being scrapped.
Of course, you could find a more modest welder (mobile?) with lower overheads who could give you a second opinion, however a quick Google suggests that a pair of sill repair panels are 130 quid and wheel arches (about) 95 quid for the pair, so once you've factored in those, welding labour, consumables, paint and the dreaded VAT, then I can easily see it hitting a four figure bill. (assuming you want to do a 'proper' job rather than just patching it to get through the MOT). Bear in mind that sills make up the structural integrity of the car in an accident).
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Thursday 5th May 11:15
It depends if you just want it MOT (and road) worthy at a low cost, or if you want it to look nice. Also of course where the corrosion is and how bad it is.
Outer wheel arches (the bits you see around the wheels when you stand next to the car) aren't structural, but corrosion will cause a fail if it has resulted in a sharp or jagged edge that could cause injury. Removing sharp edges and covering the area in duck tape is a perfectly acceptable (if ugly) MOT repair. I've done this on bangers before.
Corrosion on inner wheel arches can fail if it's within 30cm of a suspension or braking component mounting point. This needs a proper repair with the rust being cut out, and good metal properly welded in in its place.
Sills are structural and will need welding. If it's a holed outer sill, as mentioned earlier, you can simply weld a plate over the area, grind the welds back as flush as possible, and then paint the whole area with Hammerite or something similar. It won't look very nice, but you'd need to get down on your hands and knees to really see it.
For jobs like this, ask around on your local Faceache group or owners forum and find a backstreet / driveway welder. Or if you want it to look good, maybe ask around for a bodyshop that offers a lower rate for cash/private work (many do).
Outer wheel arches (the bits you see around the wheels when you stand next to the car) aren't structural, but corrosion will cause a fail if it has resulted in a sharp or jagged edge that could cause injury. Removing sharp edges and covering the area in duck tape is a perfectly acceptable (if ugly) MOT repair. I've done this on bangers before.
Corrosion on inner wheel arches can fail if it's within 30cm of a suspension or braking component mounting point. This needs a proper repair with the rust being cut out, and good metal properly welded in in its place.
Sills are structural and will need welding. If it's a holed outer sill, as mentioned earlier, you can simply weld a plate over the area, grind the welds back as flush as possible, and then paint the whole area with Hammerite or something similar. It won't look very nice, but you'd need to get down on your hands and knees to really see it.
For jobs like this, ask around on your local Faceache group or owners forum and find a backstreet / driveway welder. Or if you want it to look good, maybe ask around for a bodyshop that offers a lower rate for cash/private work (many do).
Edited by Limpet on Thursday 5th May 11:31
We often get vehicles in like this for welding. Over the years you get to recognise certain models which you just know that after 5 minutes with a grinder that 4” hole in the sill will end up needing inner and out sills repair/replacing.
Usually if this is the case the cost in hours will often outweigh the vehicles value. Sometimes it’s best to say that’s the end of the vehicles life rather than keep throwing money at it as the rest of the vehicle will be going in the same direction.
Usually if this is the case the cost in hours will often outweigh the vehicles value. Sometimes it’s best to say that’s the end of the vehicles life rather than keep throwing money at it as the rest of the vehicle will be going in the same direction.
Ladvr6 said:
We often get vehicles in like this for welding. Over the years you get to recognise certain models which you just know that after 5 minutes with a grinder that 4” hole in the sill will end up needing inner and out sills repair/replacing.
Usually if this is the case the cost in hours will often outweigh the vehicles value. Sometimes it’s best to say that’s the end of the vehicles life rather than keep throwing money at it as the rest of the vehicle will be going in the same direction.
This. I’d get someone to go over it with a fine-tooth comb to give you a better idea of what lurking beneath. You can then make a more informed decision as to whether you want to proceed or let the old girl go gently into the night. Usually if this is the case the cost in hours will often outweigh the vehicles value. Sometimes it’s best to say that’s the end of the vehicles life rather than keep throwing money at it as the rest of the vehicle will be going in the same direction.
I think the three issues with this sort of situation are:
1) It's notoriously hard to tell how deep the rust goes, so the cost of the fix could escalate further once work begins
2) If it's not thoroughly done and properly re-sealed, it'll rust again quite quickly
3) A car that has rust in some areas is fairly likely to have rust in other areas too, so you can end up chasing it around the car, with significant bills each year when the MoT comes around
So it's not like say a failed shock absorber, where you could fit four new shocks and be confident you're 'done' with the issue.
Thinking about the next 3-5 years, therefore, you may end up better off scrapping this car and spending a few grand on a less rusty one. You might also have a slightly newer, nicer car to drive in the meantime.
This is one of those situations where you can have the minimal done to scrape an MOT pass this year, do the job reasonably well and future proof it as best you can for the next few years or go full retard and throw a blank cheque at it. What is the best option depends on many variables but I'd be asking a garage to do a full check over and advise of any future work that may need doing... ie do you spend a grand welding it this month then next month it'll need tyres, the next it'll be brakes and the exhaust is on its last legs too. Then there's that gearbox whine and that welding this month was just to get a clean ticket but give it another winter and it'll be like Swiss cheese again. And after all that are you keeping it until it wheezes its last breath or looking to get rid next month?
So, really you do need to think about worst case scenario... and if it's just the welding and that'll see you with another 12 months or more with no major spend required than fair enough, assuming you're happy to keep it but if the welding is the tip of the ice berg and it's going to need a fair few quid spending over the next few months to keep it going then you need to ask if it's worth the investment or better to cut loose and move on. From my point of view, unless it's something particularly special then as soon as terminal rot is mentioned then it can go as rot is incredibly hard to get rid off and even through a grand seems dear / may hint at a thorough job... the reality is that might just be the minimum to get it through a test and it'll be in an even worse state gain next year.
Personally I'd shift it on, an old, pretty average Japanese car with four figures worth of rot remedy required...
So, really you do need to think about worst case scenario... and if it's just the welding and that'll see you with another 12 months or more with no major spend required than fair enough, assuming you're happy to keep it but if the welding is the tip of the ice berg and it's going to need a fair few quid spending over the next few months to keep it going then you need to ask if it's worth the investment or better to cut loose and move on. From my point of view, unless it's something particularly special then as soon as terminal rot is mentioned then it can go as rot is incredibly hard to get rid off and even through a grand seems dear / may hint at a thorough job... the reality is that might just be the minimum to get it through a test and it'll be in an even worse state gain next year.
Personally I'd shift it on, an old, pretty average Japanese car with four figures worth of rot remedy required...
Another thread has CRV rust images and quoted price to repair:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=19...
You could try uploading some photos here so the PH collective can proffer an opinion?
What's the MoT history like? Have previous MoTs mentioned rust?
My last two cars ended up being a like a patch work quilt with patches being let to get through MoTs and a 20 pence piece sized hole in a front inner wheel arch within 5-6 inches of a strut top was one of the two MoT failure issues that led it to being scrapped before it's last MoT.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=19...
You could try uploading some photos here so the PH collective can proffer an opinion?
What's the MoT history like? Have previous MoTs mentioned rust?
My last two cars ended up being a like a patch work quilt with patches being let to get through MoTs and a 20 pence piece sized hole in a front inner wheel arch within 5-6 inches of a strut top was one of the two MoT failure issues that led it to being scrapped before it's last MoT.
Edited by carinaman on Thursday 5th May 13:47
We've just scrapped the Alfa as we had it 8 years, it had a rusted through subframe, needed brakes discs and pads, new springs, new battery and new water pump. It also has body corrosion, an intermittent power steering issues and was worth about much less than the cost to repair.
At some point you just need to let go and say enough is enough
At some point you just need to let go and say enough is enough
MikeM6 said:
We've just scrapped the Alfa as we had it 8 years, it had a rusted through subframe, needed brakes discs and pads, new springs, new battery and new water pump. It also has body corrosion, an intermittent power steering issues and was worth about much less than the cost to repair.
At some point you just need to let go and say enough is enough
Was that a MiTo?At some point you just need to let go and say enough is enough
Worth mentioning with welding rust repairs that if you're happy with it looking a bit ****, you can save a huge amount of £££.
The actual cutting out rust, bashing steel so it fits the holes & welding it in isn't usually that expensive - its the chasing of perfection - finishing/paintwork blending etc that costs.
A basic fabricated repair, finished with a quick spray of rust encapsulating paint & the internal area flooded with rust converter & cavity wax on top should last you many MOT's.
The actual cutting out rust, bashing steel so it fits the holes & welding it in isn't usually that expensive - its the chasing of perfection - finishing/paintwork blending etc that costs.
A basic fabricated repair, finished with a quick spray of rust encapsulating paint & the internal area flooded with rust converter & cavity wax on top should last you many MOT's.
DaveCWK said:
Worth mentioning with welding rust repairs that if you're happy with it looking a bit ****, you can save a huge amount of £££.
The actual cutting out rust, bashing steel so it fits the holes & welding it in isn't usually that expensive - its the chasing of perfection - finishing/paintwork blending etc that costs.
A basic fabricated repair, finished with a quick spray of rust encapsulating paint & the internal area flooded with rust converter & cavity wax on top should last you many MOT's.
I would echo this. My old Alfa failed its MOT on a perforated sill. Garage quoted something around £800 to get it replaced/painted. I asked if they had any options to patch it cheaper and they got the guy at the next door exhaust shop to cut back, weld a plate and repaint/seal it for about £150 IIRC, which got it through the MOT no problem. The repair looked fine as it was painted black and didn't stand out. The actual cutting out rust, bashing steel so it fits the holes & welding it in isn't usually that expensive - its the chasing of perfection - finishing/paintwork blending etc that costs.
A basic fabricated repair, finished with a quick spray of rust encapsulating paint & the internal area flooded with rust converter & cavity wax on top should last you many MOT's.
However, that was the point I decided to trade it in, which turned out to be a good move as it failed its subsequent MOT on corrosion of both rear suspension mounts which would have got a bit expensive/written it off...
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