Petrolhead in doubt, 5 cylinder or straight six?
Discussion
Hi everyone,
My name is Marc and i am 24 from the Netherland. New to the forum but have been active on the website reading.
Summary
Toyota Yaris T-sport (2002) not suitable for highway. i love the feel of old school manual cars (min. 10+ years old). My head says BMW 125i e82 / 130i e87 but my heart says Focus ST mk2.
Short story
My first and current car Toyota Yaris T-sport (2002) needs to go as it is not suitable for the highway (4,5k rpm at motorway speeds). I can finally buy something fast at 24 so i test drove a lot of cars. During the test drives i found out i love the feel of old school cars (min. 10+ years old), working the manual, hydraulic steering, the sounds and smells etc. I have doubts between a modified Ford Focus ST MK2 and a BMW 125i/130i M-sport. My head says the BMW has a better seating position, smooth engine, cruise control. However i feel like i need to modify it to get the same smiles. The ford gave me the most smiles i ever had in a car however the seating position, cheap interior, bad mpg and lack of cruise control makes me doubt i will love it on the long run. I had the same experience with the yaris, loved it at first but now hate it on the highway.
Long story
I'm in the market for a new car however i can't really come to a decision. I currently own a Toyota Yaris T-sport 2002 and i love this ''s
tbox'' on twisty roads. However i drive 90% highway and it is just exhausting at 4k / 4.5k rpm. It my first car (i'm 24) and is also easy to work on asi have done brakes, schocks and more with help. My dad owns a Audi B8 2.0 TDI 150hp and it's fantastic for long trips, however it lacks some soul/character.
So i test drove a lot of cars, an 8v Audi S3 auto, BMW M135I auto, Ford Focus ST MK3, Ford Fiesta ST mk3 (2014), BMW e87 130i 6MT, BMW e82 125i 6MT, Ford Focus st MK2 6MT, Mazda MX5 NC. My friend had an E46 320d which i loved. So i was always under the impression that out of all these cars, the BMW M135i would be my dream car, however i was quite underwhelmed with it. The same friend, now has a beater Citroen ZX with only 70-80 hp but i really love driving it. Another friend had a Saab 900 manual which i also loved.
In short i found out i love the feel of old school cars, working the manual, hydraulic steering, the sounds and smells etc.
My requirements are therefore only the following:
Manual
AC
Possible to DIY
Fun>quick
Character (most 10+ years old fit this description)
Good seats
So i also test drove a tuned Ford Focus ST mk2 with close to 300bhp, modified exhaust etc. I could not stop laughing, it was so much fun. However i had the same with the Yaris T-sport. But i can't stand the car on the highway it just kills the fun. The BMW 130i on the other hand was perfect in terms of feel and seating position and cruise control however it didn't gave me as many smiles. Modding it (exhaust etc.) would probably make it a lot better. In conclusion it feels like the focus is the more fun car but i would prefer the BMW for long trips. My head says BMW but my heart says Focus. The focus has this cheap plastic interior and worse seating position but the engine noise is so addictive.
Does anyone have experience with these cars? What should i pick?
Thanks in advance
My name is Marc and i am 24 from the Netherland. New to the forum but have been active on the website reading.
Summary
Toyota Yaris T-sport (2002) not suitable for highway. i love the feel of old school manual cars (min. 10+ years old). My head says BMW 125i e82 / 130i e87 but my heart says Focus ST mk2.
Short story
My first and current car Toyota Yaris T-sport (2002) needs to go as it is not suitable for the highway (4,5k rpm at motorway speeds). I can finally buy something fast at 24 so i test drove a lot of cars. During the test drives i found out i love the feel of old school cars (min. 10+ years old), working the manual, hydraulic steering, the sounds and smells etc. I have doubts between a modified Ford Focus ST MK2 and a BMW 125i/130i M-sport. My head says the BMW has a better seating position, smooth engine, cruise control. However i feel like i need to modify it to get the same smiles. The ford gave me the most smiles i ever had in a car however the seating position, cheap interior, bad mpg and lack of cruise control makes me doubt i will love it on the long run. I had the same experience with the yaris, loved it at first but now hate it on the highway.
Long story
I'm in the market for a new car however i can't really come to a decision. I currently own a Toyota Yaris T-sport 2002 and i love this ''s
tbox'' on twisty roads. However i drive 90% highway and it is just exhausting at 4k / 4.5k rpm. It my first car (i'm 24) and is also easy to work on asi have done brakes, schocks and more with help. My dad owns a Audi B8 2.0 TDI 150hp and it's fantastic for long trips, however it lacks some soul/character.So i test drove a lot of cars, an 8v Audi S3 auto, BMW M135I auto, Ford Focus ST MK3, Ford Fiesta ST mk3 (2014), BMW e87 130i 6MT, BMW e82 125i 6MT, Ford Focus st MK2 6MT, Mazda MX5 NC. My friend had an E46 320d which i loved. So i was always under the impression that out of all these cars, the BMW M135i would be my dream car, however i was quite underwhelmed with it. The same friend, now has a beater Citroen ZX with only 70-80 hp but i really love driving it. Another friend had a Saab 900 manual which i also loved.
In short i found out i love the feel of old school cars, working the manual, hydraulic steering, the sounds and smells etc.
My requirements are therefore only the following:
Manual
AC
Possible to DIY
Fun>quick
Character (most 10+ years old fit this description)
Good seats
So i also test drove a tuned Ford Focus ST mk2 with close to 300bhp, modified exhaust etc. I could not stop laughing, it was so much fun. However i had the same with the Yaris T-sport. But i can't stand the car on the highway it just kills the fun. The BMW 130i on the other hand was perfect in terms of feel and seating position and cruise control however it didn't gave me as many smiles. Modding it (exhaust etc.) would probably make it a lot better. In conclusion it feels like the focus is the more fun car but i would prefer the BMW for long trips. My head says BMW but my heart says Focus. The focus has this cheap plastic interior and worse seating position but the engine noise is so addictive.
Does anyone have experience with these cars? What should i pick?
Thanks in advance
Edited by Hoekstra97 on Friday 13th May 12:16
One or two thoughts:
The 125i/130i are generally thought of as a great engine in an ok chassis, and depending on the condition of the roads in the Netherlands, one with an M-Sport pack and run-flats could be uncomfortable or annoying. In the UK a company call Birds is known for reworking their suspension: https://www.birdsauto.com/models/1-series-e81e87 . There is also a reader cars' thread on here about somebody buying a E9* 335i because he found the comparative lack of low speed torque in his 130i a pain for driving on highways.
I think it is only the pre-LCI 130i that has hydraulic power steering - I think the 125i coupe always had electric (the 135i coupe had hydraulic, but that perhaps has other problems).
Have you thought of buying a E9* 330i, though many of them have direct-injection engines and a lot of them will have electric power steering?
The 125i/130i are generally thought of as a great engine in an ok chassis, and depending on the condition of the roads in the Netherlands, one with an M-Sport pack and run-flats could be uncomfortable or annoying. In the UK a company call Birds is known for reworking their suspension: https://www.birdsauto.com/models/1-series-e81e87 . There is also a reader cars' thread on here about somebody buying a E9* 335i because he found the comparative lack of low speed torque in his 130i a pain for driving on highways.
I think it is only the pre-LCI 130i that has hydraulic power steering - I think the 125i coupe always had electric (the 135i coupe had hydraulic, but that perhaps has other problems).
Have you thought of buying a E9* 330i, though many of them have direct-injection engines and a lot of them will have electric power steering?
Your requirements and your use seem at odds with each other.
A 320D (or even better a 330D) will offer lots of performance on the motorway at very reasonable MPG. However any car suited to motorway+ speeds will also be fairly dull at lower speeds because it's 1) too capable and 2) too well insulated.
I love the idea of doing big miles in a 335I but it's just not economically feasible and the in-gear performance will only be similar to a 320D in top gear while the MPG will be half...
I have found a compromise myself in running the 30D engine (on my second now) after several 20D's and one atmospheric 6-pot as it offers some character and reasonable MPG. Truth is 90% of my use is on the motorway in top gear and it's excellent there!
A 320D (or even better a 330D) will offer lots of performance on the motorway at very reasonable MPG. However any car suited to motorway+ speeds will also be fairly dull at lower speeds because it's 1) too capable and 2) too well insulated.
I love the idea of doing big miles in a 335I but it's just not economically feasible and the in-gear performance will only be similar to a 320D in top gear while the MPG will be half...
I have found a compromise myself in running the 30D engine (on my second now) after several 20D's and one atmospheric 6-pot as it offers some character and reasonable MPG. Truth is 90% of my use is on the motorway in top gear and it's excellent there!
I've no experience of the focus but have become addicted to 6-cylinder petrol BMWs!
I started off with a Z4 Coupe for fun days then got an E46 325ti Compact for everyday duties.
A few years later I replaced the E46 with an E91 325i but it didn't feel that quick so after a year I replaced it with an E90 330i that I have had 3 years.
Then in late 2019 I replaced the Z4 Coupe with a Z4M Coupe.
I know the 5 cylinder Focus has many fans and being a turbo engine more power is easily added, but that could be an issue with insurance possibly.
Just my personal preference but I like N/A engines and RWD.
Good luck whatever you decide to get.
I started off with a Z4 Coupe for fun days then got an E46 325ti Compact for everyday duties.
A few years later I replaced the E46 with an E91 325i but it didn't feel that quick so after a year I replaced it with an E90 330i that I have had 3 years.
Then in late 2019 I replaced the Z4 Coupe with a Z4M Coupe.
I know the 5 cylinder Focus has many fans and being a turbo engine more power is easily added, but that could be an issue with insurance possibly.
Just my personal preference but I like N/A engines and RWD.
Good luck whatever you decide to get.
trevalvole said:
One or two thoughts:
The 125i/130i are generally thought of as a great engine in an ok chassis, and depending on the condition of the roads in the Netherlands, one with an M-Sport pack and run-flats could be uncomfortable or annoying. In the UK a company call Birds is known for reworking their suspension: https://www.birdsauto.com/models/1-series-e81e87 . There is also a reader cars' thread on here about somebody buying a E9* 335i because he found the comparative lack of low speed torque in his 130i a pain for driving on highways.
I think it is only the pre-LCI 130i that has hydraulic power steering - I think the 125i coupe always had electric (the 135i coupe had hydraulic, but that perhaps has other problems).
Have you thought of buying a E9* 330i, though many of them have direct-injection engines and a lot of them will have electric power steering?
Reply: The 125i/130i are generally thought of as a great engine in an ok chassis, and depending on the condition of the roads in the Netherlands, one with an M-Sport pack and run-flats could be uncomfortable or annoying. In the UK a company call Birds is known for reworking their suspension: https://www.birdsauto.com/models/1-series-e81e87 . There is also a reader cars' thread on here about somebody buying a E9* 335i because he found the comparative lack of low speed torque in his 130i a pain for driving on highways.
I think it is only the pre-LCI 130i that has hydraulic power steering - I think the 125i coupe always had electric (the 135i coupe had hydraulic, but that perhaps has other problems).
Have you thought of buying a E9* 330i, though many of them have direct-injection engines and a lot of them will have electric power steering?
Yes i thougth about getting the 330i but i think the 1 series coupe holds it's value a bit better. Maybe i should just test drive one. Good idea. But i dont want direct-injection.
HelldogBE said:
Your requirements and your use seem at odds with each other.
A 320D (or even better a 330D) will offer lots of performance on the motorway at very reasonable MPG. However any car suited to motorway+ speeds will also be fairly dull at lower speeds because it's 1) too capable and 2) too well insulated.
I love the idea of doing big miles in a 335I but it's just not economically feasible and the in-gear performance will only be similar to a 320D in top gear while the MPG will be half...
I have found a compromise myself in running the 30D engine (on my second now) after several 20D's and one atmospheric 6-pot as it offers some character and reasonable MPG. Truth is 90% of my use is on the motorway in top gear and it's excellent there!
Diesel are really expensive here. The road tax alone is about 1800-2000 euro per year, excluding the expensive insurance etc. Gasoline is the cheaper option here. A 320D (or even better a 330D) will offer lots of performance on the motorway at very reasonable MPG. However any car suited to motorway+ speeds will also be fairly dull at lower speeds because it's 1) too capable and 2) too well insulated.
I love the idea of doing big miles in a 335I but it's just not economically feasible and the in-gear performance will only be similar to a 320D in top gear while the MPG will be half...
I have found a compromise myself in running the 30D engine (on my second now) after several 20D's and one atmospheric 6-pot as it offers some character and reasonable MPG. Truth is 90% of my use is on the motorway in top gear and it's excellent there!
I agree, i was hoping to find a car which is both sporty and comfortable. The mazda MX5 is the best so far but it is just too small for me.
Zerosumgame said:
If you are into modding stick with the Ford. Much less tuning support on that BMW NA engine. As mentioned by the poster above the Saab 93 2.8T really is an exceptional drive and a performance bargain - if you can get over the looks
Not sure, i'm used to beating my yaris and it only eats brakes and stuff. Most reliable car ever. I think the bimmer is the more reliable option? However i read a lot about oil leaks and the repairs are quite expensive and probs too hard for me as an amateur mechanic.Hoekstra97 said:
Diesel are really expensive here. The road tax alone is about 1800-2000 euro per year, excluding the expensive insurance etc. Gasoline is the cheaper option here.
I agree, i was hoping to find a car which is both sporty and comfortable. The mazda MX5 is the best so far but it is just too small for me.
The problem with small hatches and big engines is that they generally don't improve the handling.I agree, i was hoping to find a car which is both sporty and comfortable. The mazda MX5 is the best so far but it is just too small for me.
The Volvo C30 T5 (same engine as the MK2 Focus ST?) has nice engine characteristics, but the chassis and insulation makes it more of a cruiser. Will do the practical stuff well tho.
Same with the e87 130i, but at least that has the proper RWD layout.
If I was in your shoes a mk7 Fiesta ST seems to provide a lot of thrills. It won't have more than 4 cylinders or be the best tool for motorway journeys but the chassis is superb and the running cost is affordable. You'd need a test drive to see if you can live with the fidgety ride and motorway MPG.
The next step up to a Focus ST/Golf GTI might be too mature for the kind of fun car you're looking for...
A good motorway car is unlikely to be great on twisty roads or at slow speed.
However I’d agree with Mr Tidy that the Z4 is a good compromise of straight six engine, RWD, and looks that make it a pleasure to own.
I’ve had my Z4 3.0 Coupe for a decade, and while it’s never going to match a Lotus Elise for B-road fun, I never tire of it.
When I was the same age as the OP, I’d have said the Z4 is a bit too sensible*, but listen to the wisdom of us oldies and give it some thought.
* If it had existed back then.
However I’d agree with Mr Tidy that the Z4 is a good compromise of straight six engine, RWD, and looks that make it a pleasure to own.
I’ve had my Z4 3.0 Coupe for a decade, and while it’s never going to match a Lotus Elise for B-road fun, I never tire of it.
When I was the same age as the OP, I’d have said the Z4 is a bit too sensible*, but listen to the wisdom of us oldies and give it some thought.
* If it had existed back then.
Edited by SpudLink on Saturday 14th May 18:33
Hoekstra97 said:
Short story
I have doubts between a modified Ford Focus ST MK2 and a BMW 125i/130i M-sport. My head says the BMW has a better seating position, smooth engine, cruise control. However i feel like i need to modify it to get the same smiles. The ford gave me the most smiles i ever had in a car however the seating position, cheap interior, bad mpg and lack of cruise control makes me doubt i will love it on the long run. I had the same experience with the yaris, loved it at first but now hate it on the highway.
In short i found out i love the feel of old school cars, working the manual, hydraulic steering, the sounds and smells etc.
My requirements are therefore only the following:
Manual
AC
Possible to DIY
Fun>quick
Character (most 10+ years old fit this description)
Good seats
So i also test drove a tuned Ford Focus ST mk2 with close to 300bhp, modified exhaust etc. I could not stop laughing, it was so much fun. However i had the same with the Yaris T-sport. But i can't stand the car on the highway it just kills the fun. The BMW 130i on the other hand was perfect in terms of feel and seating position and cruise control however it didn't gave me as many smiles. Modding it (exhaust etc.) would probably make it a lot better. In conclusion it feels like the focus is the more fun car but i would prefer the BMW for long trips. My head says BMW but my heart says Focus. The focus has this cheap plastic interior and worse seating position but the engine noise is so addictive.
Does anyone have experience with these cars? What should i pick?
I’ve owned three BMW 130is and a V70 with the ST’s 2.5-litre engine, plus a five-cylinder S60 2.4 T5 with 260hp. While I’m sure the Focus is fun, I’d personally go BMW every time. It sounds like you could make a few changes and have a BMW that’s perfect for you, whereas a modified Focus will always have those elements you don’t like.I have doubts between a modified Ford Focus ST MK2 and a BMW 125i/130i M-sport. My head says the BMW has a better seating position, smooth engine, cruise control. However i feel like i need to modify it to get the same smiles. The ford gave me the most smiles i ever had in a car however the seating position, cheap interior, bad mpg and lack of cruise control makes me doubt i will love it on the long run. I had the same experience with the yaris, loved it at first but now hate it on the highway.
In short i found out i love the feel of old school cars, working the manual, hydraulic steering, the sounds and smells etc.
My requirements are therefore only the following:
Manual
AC
Possible to DIY
Fun>quick
Character (most 10+ years old fit this description)
Good seats
So i also test drove a tuned Ford Focus ST mk2 with close to 300bhp, modified exhaust etc. I could not stop laughing, it was so much fun. However i had the same with the Yaris T-sport. But i can't stand the car on the highway it just kills the fun. The BMW 130i on the other hand was perfect in terms of feel and seating position and cruise control however it didn't gave me as many smiles. Modding it (exhaust etc.) would probably make it a lot better. In conclusion it feels like the focus is the more fun car but i would prefer the BMW for long trips. My head says BMW but my heart says Focus. The focus has this cheap plastic interior and worse seating position but the engine noise is so addictive.
Does anyone have experience with these cars? What should i pick?
Edited by Hoekstra97 on Friday 13th May 12:16
You can make the Focus more powerful, but it will always have poor traction compared with the power available, a high driving position and that interior. Meanwhile, you can make the BMW louder and more hardcore if you want and it will still have rear-wheel-drive traction and a low driving position that appealed in the first place.
Is there a reason you wouldn’t consider a modified 130i/getting a few parts changed yourself, when you’re looking at a modified Focus?
HelldogBE said:
The problem with small hatches and big engines is that they generally don't improve the handling.
That may be true for the Focus, but the BMW has a magnesium and aluminium engine block, so it was the lightest engine of its type when new and it’s mounted very far back in the car. Hoekstra97 said:
Reply:
Yes i thougth about getting the 330i but i think the 1 series coupe holds it's value a bit better. Maybe i should just test drive one. Good idea. But i dont want direct-injection.
FWIW my 330i is an 05 model so has the N52 engine that isn't a DI and has Hydraulic PAS, but cost me less than £3.5K three years ago. Yes i thougth about getting the 330i but i think the 1 series coupe holds it's value a bit better. Maybe i should just test drive one. Good idea. But i dont want direct-injection.
125i/130i options may hold value better, but they also cost more!
ninjag said:
Why do you not want direct injection?
I'd imagine it's to do with the valves getting messy and requiring more maintenance/cleaning over time, which isn't as much of a problem with port injection. I wasn't overly interested in turbo cars, always preferred NA and 6 cyl if possible. But after buying s golf gti mk5, my opinion has changed somewhat. Lots of torque and surprisingly eager to rev.
Have a go with both the focus and a 130, see which suits you. I currently hace a yaris t sport, it's great, but both will be a big step up in pace, if perhaps not fun.
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