Is Honda e fast enough?
Discussion
I’m in a rental i3 today and realised I must have one! Cracking car. It does 0-60 in 7.1 seconds (will go for an S 6.9 seconds) while the rear fights for traction - fun and just the right amount of speed.
I prefer the looks and package of the e but 8.1 seconds might be too slow making it a dull drive?
I prefer the looks and package of the e but 8.1 seconds might be too slow making it a dull drive?
I test drove a Honda E (and a lot of others) but bought the BMW I3S. I wouldn't say the Honda was slow, my reasons for not buying it were not enough range and my wife reckoned not enough rear space for the weekly shop, even with the seats down. I did really like the Honda, the tech was very good, the video door mirrors are fabulous but watching the range tick down below 100 miles as i drove away from a charger was just too distracting.
Evanivitch said:
Depends what you use it for. Most city electric cars are quite quick upto 30-40 mph and tail off to a less than impressive 0-60.
My Ampera isn't quick by any measure, but has useful power when you need it.
I’m Interested in 0-60 really, or more so 20-50, for that kick back in your seat feelingMy Ampera isn't quick by any measure, but has useful power when you need it.
Range is not an issue for the intended use
GT6k said:
I test drove a Honda E (and a lot of others) but bought the BMW I3S. I wouldn't say the Honda was slow, my reasons for not buying it were not enough range and my wife reckoned not enough rear space for the weekly shop, even with the seats down. I did really like the Honda, the tech was very good, the video door mirrors are fabulous but watching the range tick down below 100 miles as i drove away from a charger was just too distracting.
Similar-I loved everything about the E apart from the range. It really did drive beautifully-handled well and was certainly fast enough. I just couldn’t get on board with just 100 miles (or less) range.stef1808 said:
I’m in a rental i3 today and realised I must have one! Cracking car. It does 0-60 in 7.1 seconds (will go for an S 6.9 seconds) while the rear fights for traction - fun and just the right amount of speed.
I prefer the looks and package of the e but 8.1 seconds might be too slow making it a dull drive?
Stick with the normal i3 if ride is important. I prefer it to drive as a daily. S is a bit harsh. Nothing (much) will touch either to 45 - v fast off the mark. And great overtakers too as response is immediate. And I drive a B9 RS4 and 911 the rest of the time so lucky enough to know what fast should feel like. The i3 is a very impressive little car.I prefer the looks and package of the e but 8.1 seconds might be too slow making it a dull drive?
The Honda e is pretty pokey. You have to remember that all electric vehicles are not like fossil fuel cars, they produce maximum torque all the time.
That makes them feel very fast off the mark. Even my old Leaf used to blow away BMWs and Audis at the lights. It was hilarious, they thought they could use the right hand lane to get ahead of the slow poke eco-mobile. I'd be sailing past them in near silence, the only real sound being their engine straining and grinding in a futile attempt to keep up.
Having had an extended test drive in an e I can say that it's plenty of fun to drive. It's got Honda handling, it goes exactly where you want it to, feels connected and responsive. The suspension keeps it smooth and comfortable though. They put a lot of effort into engineering a great ride in it.
That makes them feel very fast off the mark. Even my old Leaf used to blow away BMWs and Audis at the lights. It was hilarious, they thought they could use the right hand lane to get ahead of the slow poke eco-mobile. I'd be sailing past them in near silence, the only real sound being their engine straining and grinding in a futile attempt to keep up.
Having had an extended test drive in an e I can say that it's plenty of fun to drive. It's got Honda handling, it goes exactly where you want it to, feels connected and responsive. The suspension keeps it smooth and comfortable though. They put a lot of effort into engineering a great ride in it.
No disrespect intended but pretty pokey is not a scientific unit. kW and kg are.
The beauty of EVs is they virtually all have fixed gearing so above base speed power to weight ratio and therefore perceived acceleration is easy to calculate. Assuming 100kg payload a Honda e appears to be 136/1637 or 83W/kg and a late i3 167/1465 114W/kg so 37% higher, which will be quite noticeable I suspect.
So answer to the posters original question probably not.
The beauty of EVs is they virtually all have fixed gearing so above base speed power to weight ratio and therefore perceived acceleration is easy to calculate. Assuming 100kg payload a Honda e appears to be 136/1637 or 83W/kg and a late i3 167/1465 114W/kg so 37% higher, which will be quite noticeable I suspect.
So answer to the posters original question probably not.
granada203028 said:
No disrespect intended but pretty pokey is not a scientific unit. kW and kg are.
The beauty of EVs is they virtually all have fixed gearing so above base speed power to weight ratio and therefore perceived acceleration is easy to calculate. Assuming 100kg payload a Honda e appears to be 136/1637 or 83W/kg and a late i3 167/1465 114W/kg so 37% higher, which will be quite noticeable I suspect.
So answer to the posters original question probably not.
Power to weight is a useful yardstick but doesn't tell the whole story on its own. Strictly speaking you can only compare them directly if they are both producing the same % of their full power rating at the same road speed. The final drive ratio and motor power curve also need to be factored in.The beauty of EVs is they virtually all have fixed gearing so above base speed power to weight ratio and therefore perceived acceleration is easy to calculate. Assuming 100kg payload a Honda e appears to be 136/1637 or 83W/kg and a late i3 167/1465 114W/kg so 37% higher, which will be quite noticeable I suspect.
So answer to the posters original question probably not.
The reason being that the power required to accelerate is a fixed value of approximately 6 bhp (or 4.44 kW) per mph per ton per G.
If for example the Honda reaches its peak power at a lower road speed than the BMW (and assuming the power is rising linearly for both cars) it will have access to a higher % of its peak power rating.
Therefore for road speeds below the speed at which each car's motor reaches peak power, you would need to multiply the instantaneous % of peak power by the 83 and 114 W/kg values you calculated to make a true comparison.
This also assumes drag, rolling resistance, drivetrain and auxiliary loads are broadly the same between each car.
I wouldn't be basing my car buying judgement on fractions of a second worth of acceleration.
Basically irrelevant after the first day novelty.
Of the two I'd go with the BMW purely on range, which is a shame because the Honda looks great. I used to own a Gen 1 Insight and the Honda e feels like the spiritual successor to that car.
Basically irrelevant after the first day novelty.
Of the two I'd go with the BMW purely on range, which is a shame because the Honda looks great. I used to own a Gen 1 Insight and the Honda e feels like the spiritual successor to that car.
No above base speed nothing else matters, both cars on on there maximum power curves, that is the beauty of a single speed EV.
My Leaf only requires 15kW of it's 80 to do 60mph, so drag not really coming into it until well into illegal speeds. These more powerful cars will have even greater margin.
But yes below base speed gearing does matter and makes it more difficult to compare. I suspect the Honda e has a lower top speed than the i3 so likely to have a lower base speed where it switches from constant power to constant torque and power falls. So the difference then less marked at lower speeds.
I recently rode in a Hyundai Kona which has 150kW, nearly twice my Leaf's 80kW, but the difference felt nothing like this.
My Leaf only requires 15kW of it's 80 to do 60mph, so drag not really coming into it until well into illegal speeds. These more powerful cars will have even greater margin.
But yes below base speed gearing does matter and makes it more difficult to compare. I suspect the Honda e has a lower top speed than the i3 so likely to have a lower base speed where it switches from constant power to constant torque and power falls. So the difference then less marked at lower speeds.
I recently rode in a Hyundai Kona which has 150kW, nearly twice my Leaf's 80kW, but the difference felt nothing like this.
I find the i3 utterly horrendous on twisty, rutted B roads, the skinny tyres, height and weight clearly have a majorly negative effect. Ok for town use but that’s it, I much prefer the Corsa E or God forbid Renault Zoe, at least they feel like a car. Not driven a Honda e yet but they look fantastic and should be a better driving experience then the BMW.
Welshbeef said:
To be able to tell the difference between 6.9 and 7.1 seconds do you have proper high quality highly calibrated measurement equipment?
If it was I want 4.4 seconds not 7.1 seconds clearly you can feel the difference.
Is that the difference between the Honda and i3? If so suggests the base speed is much lower for the Honda. May even mean it has better initial acceleration. This gives the fascinating prospect that it covers more more distance than the i3 by the time they get to 60, so is out in front shortly before the i3's advantage tells and it comes past.If it was I want 4.4 seconds not 7.1 seconds clearly you can feel the difference.
The human is poor at judging time, better at feeling the shove in the back but truly excellent of comparing the spatial position of the two cars from one of them.
granada203028 said:
Is that the difference between the Honda and i3? If so suggests the base speed is much lower for the Honda. May even mean it has better initial acceleration. This gives the fascinating prospect that it covers more more distance than the i3 by the time they get to 60, so is out in front shortly before the i3's advantage tells and it comes past.
The human is poor at judging time, better at feeling the shove in the back but truly excellent of comparing the spatial position of the two cars from one of them.
BMW i3/s 7.1/6.9The human is poor at judging time, better at feeling the shove in the back but truly excellent of comparing the spatial position of the two cars from one of them.
Honda e 8.1
granada203028 said:
No above base speed nothing else matters, both cars on on there maximum power curves, that is the beauty of a single speed EV.
My Leaf only requires 15kW of it's 80 to do 60mph, so drag not really coming into it until well into illegal speeds. These more powerful cars will have even greater margin.
But yes below base speed gearing does matter and makes it more difficult to compare. I suspect the Honda e has a lower top speed than the i3 so likely to have a lower base speed where it switches from constant power to constant torque and power falls. So the difference then less marked at lower speeds.
I recently rode in a Hyundai Kona which has 150kW, nearly twice my Leaf's 80kW, but the difference felt nothing like this.
Well, we are saying the same thing really.My Leaf only requires 15kW of it's 80 to do 60mph, so drag not really coming into it until well into illegal speeds. These more powerful cars will have even greater margin.
But yes below base speed gearing does matter and makes it more difficult to compare. I suspect the Honda e has a lower top speed than the i3 so likely to have a lower base speed where it switches from constant power to constant torque and power falls. So the difference then less marked at lower speeds.
I recently rode in a Hyundai Kona which has 150kW, nearly twice my Leaf's 80kW, but the difference felt nothing like this.
What you call base speed is about 5000 rpm motor speed in an i3s, which I guess is around 40 mph.
Not an insignificant amount of time is spent below this speed.
Note that the BMW power curve above this actually falls away, so it's not truly 'constant power'.
https://insideevs.com/photo/3977404/new-2018-bmw-i...
My point was that I suspect there is a bit less than a 37% performance difference between them as the area under the Honda's power curve is possibly a bit fuller.
The Honda also has a lower Cd and probably lower frontal area, so at higher speeds this will also come into play.
Not entirely true that 'nothing else matters'.
Edited by GT9 on Sunday 22 May 19:41
GT9 said:
granada203028 said:
No disrespect intended but pretty pokey is not a scientific unit. kW and kg are.
The beauty of EVs is they virtually all have fixed gearing so above base speed power to weight ratio and therefore perceived acceleration is easy to calculate. Assuming 100kg payload a Honda e appears to be 136/1637 or 83W/kg and a late i3 167/1465 114W/kg so 37% higher, which will be quite noticeable I suspect.
So answer to the posters original question probably not.
Power to weight is a useful yardstick but doesn't tell the whole story on its own. Strictly speaking you can only compare them directly if they are both producing the same % of their full power rating at the same road speed. The final drive ratio and motor power curve also need to be factored in.The beauty of EVs is they virtually all have fixed gearing so above base speed power to weight ratio and therefore perceived acceleration is easy to calculate. Assuming 100kg payload a Honda e appears to be 136/1637 or 83W/kg and a late i3 167/1465 114W/kg so 37% higher, which will be quite noticeable I suspect.
So answer to the posters original question probably not.
The reason being that the power required to accelerate is a fixed value of approximately 6 bhp (or 4.44 kW) per mph per ton per G.
If for example the Honda reaches its peak power at a lower road speed than the BMW (and assuming the power is rising linearly for both cars) it will have access to a higher % of its peak power rating.
Therefore for road speeds below the speed at which each car's motor reaches peak power, you would need to multiply the instantaneous % of peak power by the 83 and 114 W/kg values you calculated to make a true comparison.
This also assumes drag, rolling resistance, drivetrain and auxiliary loads are broadly the same between each car.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff