Help Needed - Bruises Not Healing
Discussion
Sit them down when they are sober (if that's feasible) for a decent chat. I've know Jekyll and Hyde types where alcohol abuse is concerned, so I can empathise with your unpleasant predicament. The best person to help them is themselves - do they realise what they become under the influence? Without them acknowleding the problem, it'll probably be a very difficult task.
I'm in a similar situation with a close relative LA.
It is really difficult, you can't get inside their head to turn off the anguish button for them.
If they don't want to talk about it when sober then they are in denial of their problem, or the thought of how to cope without using alcohol.
What I had to do eventually was to break away from my relative. Not in a 'I never want to see you again' way but basically 'I can't help you with this, it is affecting me healthwise, and unless you engage with professionals you won't beak out of the cycle you are in'.
It's a theory known as 'Tough Love'
To break the hold alcohol has on you and your friend, you must practice tough love. Tough love means we let go of the enabling behaviour that makes it easier for the addicted person to avoid the consequences of their disease.
Tough love means you no longer:
Cover up for them;
Lie on their behalf;
Make excuses for them;
Loan money to them, regardless of how important they say it is;
Bribe them with money or presents to stay dry or go to treatment;
Clean up after them; or
Keep silent about how their behaviour affects you.
It is called "tough love" because it is difficult to see a loved one in pain. You may feel guilty and confused, but remember: when you attempt to shield them or protect them from their own behaviour, you are protecting the addiction and not the individual.
Good luck Mate
Paul
It is really difficult, you can't get inside their head to turn off the anguish button for them.
If they don't want to talk about it when sober then they are in denial of their problem, or the thought of how to cope without using alcohol.
What I had to do eventually was to break away from my relative. Not in a 'I never want to see you again' way but basically 'I can't help you with this, it is affecting me healthwise, and unless you engage with professionals you won't beak out of the cycle you are in'.
It's a theory known as 'Tough Love'
To break the hold alcohol has on you and your friend, you must practice tough love. Tough love means we let go of the enabling behaviour that makes it easier for the addicted person to avoid the consequences of their disease.
Tough love means you no longer:
Cover up for them;
Lie on their behalf;
Make excuses for them;
Loan money to them, regardless of how important they say it is;
Bribe them with money or presents to stay dry or go to treatment;
Clean up after them; or
Keep silent about how their behaviour affects you.
It is called "tough love" because it is difficult to see a loved one in pain. You may feel guilty and confused, but remember: when you attempt to shield them or protect them from their own behaviour, you are protecting the addiction and not the individual.
Good luck Mate
Paul
"Tough love" would seem to be damn good advice.
My cousin is one of the world's few unfortunate people who have a "personality" reaction to alcohol. Drinking habits that, in others, would be perfectly fine - even healthy - change him.
Thankfully he recognises this and, with regret, has given up alcohol completely as he knows his (lovely) personality changes for the worse with even a small amount of drink.
If your friend has this problem it is important that they understand that it is NOT their FAULT. It is an unfortunate quirk of their body chemistry that means booze is not for them. They may not wish to believe it - I cannot imagine being so unlucky myself (as I am a wine enthusiast) - but if alcohol affects personality adversely there is no substitute for total abstinence. Sadly.
Its crap luck (particularly if one likes the taste of wine or beer as my cousin does) but there is no other way to deal with it.
My cousin has been on the wagon for over a decade now and is the nicest chap you could care to meet. He has organised his life to stay away from booze for long enough he can now go to the pub and "happily" drink Orange Juice. Your friend CAN deal with this. It CAN be done.
My cousin is one of the world's few unfortunate people who have a "personality" reaction to alcohol. Drinking habits that, in others, would be perfectly fine - even healthy - change him.
Thankfully he recognises this and, with regret, has given up alcohol completely as he knows his (lovely) personality changes for the worse with even a small amount of drink.
If your friend has this problem it is important that they understand that it is NOT their FAULT. It is an unfortunate quirk of their body chemistry that means booze is not for them. They may not wish to believe it - I cannot imagine being so unlucky myself (as I am a wine enthusiast) - but if alcohol affects personality adversely there is no substitute for total abstinence. Sadly.
Its crap luck (particularly if one likes the taste of wine or beer as my cousin does) but there is no other way to deal with it.
My cousin has been on the wagon for over a decade now and is the nicest chap you could care to meet. He has organised his life to stay away from booze for long enough he can now go to the pub and "happily" drink Orange Juice. Your friend CAN deal with this. It CAN be done.
los angeles said:
Getting them first to acknowledge the problem, and then to seek the only solution is hellish difficult - god knows, I've tried.
Very true. Often takes a major crisis before they choose to change and, heaven knows, that's understandable as giving up alcohol if you are dependent on it is the very last thing you want to consider having to do. Quite a few of my family were alcoholics. Some got control of it, others didn't (as Rab C Nesbitt said, "not so much Alcoholics Anonymous, as Alcoholics pretty bloody obvious." ) Very best of luck, and very sorry to hear you're having to go through this.
>> Edited by ATG on Sunday 7th August 10:46
There are a couple of good support groups, dedicated to helping families, this is one in the UK http://alcoholism.about.com/od/fam/
That's a good resource George, there are lots of others too, in the UK there is Al-Anon, not sure what is in the US to help LA but I'm sure there will be many.
What it is important to appreciate though is that there is no magic wand.
The close relative I was referring to is my sister, she went to a hypnotherapist who didn't keep things safe leaving her with an open can of worms slithering around everywhere.
As a mental health trained social worker I was trying all supportive and therapeutic methods to help her, to no aviail.
I internalised this as me being sh*te at my 'job' and as a brother and was off work four four months with depression.
It was when I was consulting my pychotherapist as part of the occy health back to work stuff that I found out about Tough Love.
It transpired that my sisters anguish stems from childhood and that obviously dragged stuff out of my closet which I had stuck at the back. (Incidentally childhood stuff was my inspiration to practice social work)
With regards to LA's pal it seems that there is something he is struggling with. Whilst he may hold down his job successfully, it is there twanging on him and when the depressive effects of alcohol kick in he manifests his feelings through anger and violence.
Of course, prolonged alcohol misuse can turn things upside down so that the alcohol becomes the thing that he is angry about.
All too often a person with severe alcohol problems has to lose everything before they are FORCED to confront it or die through suicide or serious health problems.
This is the frustrating part of watching someone self-destruct, my sisters husband has left her (on my advice, he had to save himself from a nightmarish situation) and she WILL lose their fantastic cottage in a Scottish fishing village. She doesn't think that will happen, the blur she lives her life in makes all decision making irrational and blocks the reality of things.
A brilliant book which I found really helpful is "What colour is your knicker elastic" by Sean Orford (my psych!!), this describes how relationships can be strained and eventually destroyed by circumstances beyond your control.
sorry to divert away from LA's thread with my stuff but thought it was relevant
>> Edited by glocko on Sunday 7th August 15:34
What it is important to appreciate though is that there is no magic wand.
The close relative I was referring to is my sister, she went to a hypnotherapist who didn't keep things safe leaving her with an open can of worms slithering around everywhere.
As a mental health trained social worker I was trying all supportive and therapeutic methods to help her, to no aviail.
I internalised this as me being sh*te at my 'job' and as a brother and was off work four four months with depression.
It was when I was consulting my pychotherapist as part of the occy health back to work stuff that I found out about Tough Love.
It transpired that my sisters anguish stems from childhood and that obviously dragged stuff out of my closet which I had stuck at the back. (Incidentally childhood stuff was my inspiration to practice social work)
With regards to LA's pal it seems that there is something he is struggling with. Whilst he may hold down his job successfully, it is there twanging on him and when the depressive effects of alcohol kick in he manifests his feelings through anger and violence.
Of course, prolonged alcohol misuse can turn things upside down so that the alcohol becomes the thing that he is angry about.
All too often a person with severe alcohol problems has to lose everything before they are FORCED to confront it or die through suicide or serious health problems.
This is the frustrating part of watching someone self-destruct, my sisters husband has left her (on my advice, he had to save himself from a nightmarish situation) and she WILL lose their fantastic cottage in a Scottish fishing village. She doesn't think that will happen, the blur she lives her life in makes all decision making irrational and blocks the reality of things.
A brilliant book which I found really helpful is "What colour is your knicker elastic" by Sean Orford (my psych!!), this describes how relationships can be strained and eventually destroyed by circumstances beyond your control.
sorry to divert away from LA's thread with my stuff but thought it was relevant
>> Edited by glocko on Sunday 7th August 15:34
los angeles said:
Edited to add: I'm exhausted.
I hope you won't begin to lose your spirited nature as a result of having to cope with this emotionally draining and soul destroying situation. He/she is very lucky indeed to have such a loving and caring friend not that this is appreciated, unfortunately.
Sorry, but I don't know what constructive advice to give because I haven't had any experience of someone like your friend although having read this:
los angeles said:
Last time I got physically beaten up. (I didn't retaliate.) Yup, it's that bad.
I felt suitably shocked to think to myself that he/she needs a wake-up call to recognise the seriousness and consequences of heavy drinking. My initial reaction was that perhaps you should have reported him/her for physically assaulting you, but maybe this is too harsh? I'm thinking along the lines of being 'cruel to be kind' because if they don't receive some form of (professional) help sooner or later, it'll no doubt have a devastating impact on his/her career, family/friends and mental and physical health. And then they'll presumably slip into a depression which will only compound matters further.
Good luck, Los Angeles.
Jayzus, LA, by the thread title, I thought maybe you meant you had some kind of vitamin deficiency and your bruises weren't healing.
I'm so sorry this is happening to you. I noticed in some of your other posts, you haven't been quite as spirited lately.
There is only so much you can do for this person. You are not responsible for how this person deals with his/her emotional problems. You still must take care of yourself and do what's best for the greater good (being yourself and your family), and limit your contact with this person when his/her behavior crosses the boundary and harms you and your family. We all have stuff to deal with. We've all done stuff to hurt others and they us, and there's only so much responsibility people can have to themselves and others. Do not blame yourself if you can't help this person. People often do not get help for their problems until it significantly disrupts their lives. Otherwise, they will gladly ignore it to avoid the pain. You may have to tell them that if they are violent to you, you will have to press charges. They might need to be told that if they are really your friend (and obviously they consider themselves to be and rely on you emotionally) then they have to respect your rights to safety and not deal with you in that way. Then you have to follow through if they abuse you again. I know this is very hard. A friend of my mom's has a schizophrenic son who started drugs and she had to have him Baker-acted (which is like being committed). It's very, very tough, but you have to take care of yourself, and in a way, this is what's best for them because it creates consequences they have to face for their own stuff, and removes you a little from someone else's ground zero.
It complicates things that this person's form of avoidance is addictive. I'm glad I don't drink, as I have trouble with anxiety and depression, and fear that I might have started to use alcohol for anxiety if I ever kept it in the house or acquired a taste for it. Are there certain triggers where this person drinks more than usual, or is it an ongoing semi-drunkness? It's not your responsibility to be this person's counsellor, and you may have to remove yourself from this situation. But if you wanted to try a different tack, if you know that they drink after a particular interaction or situation, ask them what goes on in that situation (without asking about the drinking). Was there a time they didn't drink? What was different then? Maybe if they start talking about what's causing the pain, they might realize that they are in fact going through something serious, and maybe it is reasonable that a person would have trouble coping. It's not by any means accepting the alcoholism, but it allows this person to see that they are going through a lot and they don't have to pretend that things are fine (and alcohol is just a way of escaping from yourself and pretending it's all ok when it's not).
There's a lot of shame with being addicted to something or having unfinished "hangups" or whatever. I think it's hard for alcoholics to deal with the fact that they are because there's the guilt and shame that they don't have it all under control when they think they should, or think they should automatically know how to handle whatever comes along without help. And this inability to ask for any support drives the alcoholism (or whatever other unhealthy coping mechanism). For me, dealing with the anxiety is very difficult and drives me to isolate myself, which of course makes it worse for whenever I need help. So I guess I'm addicted to being a hermit. I've actually gone days without speaking or other human contact. Seriously, though, the intense anxiety I get has caused a lot of problems, and for years, being a loner was much easier than figuring out what started it all to begin with. Now that bouts of anxiety are destructive to my life, they precipitate periods of incapacitating depression, and I've finally told a counsellor about stuff I didn't realize was bothering me (but can now see a clear link to it and the self imposed isolation that I didn't realize before). So, apparently, queen bitch of the universe isn't a personality, but is actually a sign of some kinds of issues I have. Anyway, I'm just giving this as an example of how the cure doesn't work sometimes until the cause is understood. Telling this person he/she's an alcoholic may not get anywhere. Just like my mom nagging me to join clubs and talk to classmates didn't get anywhere. Maybe this person needs to see that it's OK that they have issues and it's OK if they don't know how/need help to deal with it. Nobody takes up alcoholism on purpose, it starts slowly and people are addicted before they realize.
Considering your state, however, I do not recommend that you go back into this situation for a while. If you want to talk to this person about their emotional problems as some circuitous route to dealing with their addiction, I'd do it over the phone. But remember, it's time to look after yourself now.
Take care.
I'm so sorry this is happening to you. I noticed in some of your other posts, you haven't been quite as spirited lately.
There is only so much you can do for this person. You are not responsible for how this person deals with his/her emotional problems. You still must take care of yourself and do what's best for the greater good (being yourself and your family), and limit your contact with this person when his/her behavior crosses the boundary and harms you and your family. We all have stuff to deal with. We've all done stuff to hurt others and they us, and there's only so much responsibility people can have to themselves and others. Do not blame yourself if you can't help this person. People often do not get help for their problems until it significantly disrupts their lives. Otherwise, they will gladly ignore it to avoid the pain. You may have to tell them that if they are violent to you, you will have to press charges. They might need to be told that if they are really your friend (and obviously they consider themselves to be and rely on you emotionally) then they have to respect your rights to safety and not deal with you in that way. Then you have to follow through if they abuse you again. I know this is very hard. A friend of my mom's has a schizophrenic son who started drugs and she had to have him Baker-acted (which is like being committed). It's very, very tough, but you have to take care of yourself, and in a way, this is what's best for them because it creates consequences they have to face for their own stuff, and removes you a little from someone else's ground zero.
It complicates things that this person's form of avoidance is addictive. I'm glad I don't drink, as I have trouble with anxiety and depression, and fear that I might have started to use alcohol for anxiety if I ever kept it in the house or acquired a taste for it. Are there certain triggers where this person drinks more than usual, or is it an ongoing semi-drunkness? It's not your responsibility to be this person's counsellor, and you may have to remove yourself from this situation. But if you wanted to try a different tack, if you know that they drink after a particular interaction or situation, ask them what goes on in that situation (without asking about the drinking). Was there a time they didn't drink? What was different then? Maybe if they start talking about what's causing the pain, they might realize that they are in fact going through something serious, and maybe it is reasonable that a person would have trouble coping. It's not by any means accepting the alcoholism, but it allows this person to see that they are going through a lot and they don't have to pretend that things are fine (and alcohol is just a way of escaping from yourself and pretending it's all ok when it's not).
There's a lot of shame with being addicted to something or having unfinished "hangups" or whatever. I think it's hard for alcoholics to deal with the fact that they are because there's the guilt and shame that they don't have it all under control when they think they should, or think they should automatically know how to handle whatever comes along without help. And this inability to ask for any support drives the alcoholism (or whatever other unhealthy coping mechanism). For me, dealing with the anxiety is very difficult and drives me to isolate myself, which of course makes it worse for whenever I need help. So I guess I'm addicted to being a hermit. I've actually gone days without speaking or other human contact. Seriously, though, the intense anxiety I get has caused a lot of problems, and for years, being a loner was much easier than figuring out what started it all to begin with. Now that bouts of anxiety are destructive to my life, they precipitate periods of incapacitating depression, and I've finally told a counsellor about stuff I didn't realize was bothering me (but can now see a clear link to it and the self imposed isolation that I didn't realize before). So, apparently, queen bitch of the universe isn't a personality, but is actually a sign of some kinds of issues I have. Anyway, I'm just giving this as an example of how the cure doesn't work sometimes until the cause is understood. Telling this person he/she's an alcoholic may not get anywhere. Just like my mom nagging me to join clubs and talk to classmates didn't get anywhere. Maybe this person needs to see that it's OK that they have issues and it's OK if they don't know how/need help to deal with it. Nobody takes up alcoholism on purpose, it starts slowly and people are addicted before they realize.
Considering your state, however, I do not recommend that you go back into this situation for a while. If you want to talk to this person about their emotional problems as some circuitous route to dealing with their addiction, I'd do it over the phone. But remember, it's time to look after yourself now.
Take care.
los angeles said:
I've thought about a gradual disengagement, somehow just letting the friendship slip away ...
Probably your best move LA, friendships are two-way things, if it is too lopsided one way then it's obviously not a workable situation.
You can hold your head high and remind yourself that you did your best.
It's a horrible situation to be in, made worse I think because many alcoholics are lovely people when they're sober and it's often easier to ignore them when they're arseholes.
I'd even argue (going down the tough love route) that you need to make a clean break, telling the person why. Explain that their behaviour is unacceptable, and until they are under control you want ot have nothing more to do with them. It's hard, and doesn't always work, but at least you won't get dragged down with them.
glocko said:
I've thought about a gradual disengagement, somehow just letting the friendship slip away ...
Probably your best move LA, friendships are two-way things, if it is too lopsided one way then it's obviously not a workable situation.
You can hold your head high and remind yourself that you did your best.
I'd even argue (going down the tough love route) that you need to make a clean break, telling the person why. Explain that their behaviour is unacceptable, and until they are under control you want ot have nothing more to do with them. It's hard, and doesn't always work, but at least you won't get dragged down with them.los angeles said:
Ah, Cosmoschick. Thank you. If I report this person and press charges it will, almost certainly be detremental to their reputation, and the end of the friendship for us both.
Yes, I appreciate the above but presumably if they continue along the path of drinking heavily, then this coupled with the effect it has on the person's nature, will lead to their own demise by which time it may prove even more difficult to steer your friend towards the road to recovery. And he/she may well end up losing your friendship in any case despite the fact that you chose not to report them at the time. If this was your partner then the sensible thing to do would be to walk away from an abusive relationship, particularly if you had tried your best to be supportive. I don't see why it should be any different just because he/she is your friend, although the likelihood of being physically assaulted again is much reduced as you don't live under the same roof. And maybe that's the wake-up call they need - it doesn't have to be permanent. Perhaps you could write a letter explaining your feelings and how it's heartbreaking to see such a wonderful person slowly destroy him/herself.
It's a very awkward situation you find yourself in, Los Angeles.
Take care.
Good luck in your quest. It takes a special person not to just put up or not to just walk away. The tough approach is a goodun. I would say that you have to set yourselves realistic targets, talk about them and if they are not met, reassess and then come a date, if there is no improvement, you walk.
I had a bad old time with depression, I know other people who have had various struggles and had people just quit on them. What he needs is someone not to just quit on him but be an adult and grab the bull by the horns. The worst thing you can do is give up, but when you've tried and tried and tried, you have to think about your own sanity.
If this is a partner, I wouldn't place your whole future in his hands, like you say "can't live without him" I've been reliant on someone myself and more recently met someone beyond anything I could dream.
Here's a good analogy my latest Mrs Machine came up with:-
"Life ends in a big waterfall which is inevitable, until then you are drifting gradually along a big river on your raft. You are the captain of your raft, you choose who is on your raft, which other rafts you tie up to"
It hit the nail on the head for me and was very relevant, the point of life is happiness, etc, etc, you have to enjoy your scenery, value the company of the people who matter. I've had some bad people on my raft and I'm glad I threw them off. Give this bloke a good chance to prove his stay on your raft is worthy, if he fails, throw the
er overboard.
Stu
I had a bad old time with depression, I know other people who have had various struggles and had people just quit on them. What he needs is someone not to just quit on him but be an adult and grab the bull by the horns. The worst thing you can do is give up, but when you've tried and tried and tried, you have to think about your own sanity.
If this is a partner, I wouldn't place your whole future in his hands, like you say "can't live without him" I've been reliant on someone myself and more recently met someone beyond anything I could dream.
Here's a good analogy my latest Mrs Machine came up with:-
"Life ends in a big waterfall which is inevitable, until then you are drifting gradually along a big river on your raft. You are the captain of your raft, you choose who is on your raft, which other rafts you tie up to"
It hit the nail on the head for me and was very relevant, the point of life is happiness, etc, etc, you have to enjoy your scenery, value the company of the people who matter. I've had some bad people on my raft and I'm glad I threw them off. Give this bloke a good chance to prove his stay on your raft is worthy, if he fails, throw the
er overboard. Stu
Al-anon is your best bet. Talking to somebody with the same problems is always enourmously beneficial. Go to 3 meetings, if it's not for you stop going! What have you got to lose?
www.al-anon.org/english.html
www.al-anon.org/english.html
Haven't fully read the thread, but if its about a woman you are having a relationship with, and I get that impression, then I don't think you can do anything for them. They have to do it for themselves. I was in a relationship once with a vile drunk and in hindsight wish I'd got out of it earlier. Some people can't help but drag themselves down, and given half the chance will drag you down with them.
I imagine this is contrary to all the other advice in this thread, but I don't believe you can cure everyone. Sometimes dropping them out your life helps them anyway - It can help them realise people won't put up with their antics.
Hi there LA. Really sorry to hear about your situation - very difficult. Years ago, I was in a similar situation, though the specifics were different. After about 18 months of a deteriorating situation, I finally spent about a week writing, and re-writing, a letter which:
a. talked about the positive history of our relationship;
b. stated how things have changed for the worse;
c. expressed a strong desire to have things change for the better;
d. made it clear that if things didn't change then the relationship would end.
e. expressed that the letter was a 'yellow card' on the relationship, and was keen not to show a 'red card', but would do if necessary;
The advantage of 'writing' is that it doesn't degenerate into an argument. Also, the heartfelt feelings can expressed easier on paper than verbally - particularly for blokes, I think.
Anyway, I wish you well mate!
a. talked about the positive history of our relationship;
b. stated how things have changed for the worse;
c. expressed a strong desire to have things change for the better;
d. made it clear that if things didn't change then the relationship would end.
e. expressed that the letter was a 'yellow card' on the relationship, and was keen not to show a 'red card', but would do if necessary;
The advantage of 'writing' is that it doesn't degenerate into an argument. Also, the heartfelt feelings can expressed easier on paper than verbally - particularly for blokes, I think.
Anyway, I wish you well mate!
Big_M said:
Sometimes LA you will just have to walk away and make this person face the music. How often has a husband left his wife for her to only get a total make over and lose loads of weight and become a desirable person again.
Best wishes anyway mate :hugs:
Just what I said, but you were much more concise!
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