Waterless coolant, worth the money or not?
Discussion
Has anyone gone down the route of switching to waterless coolant, particularly in an older car, which has historic overheating issues?
I watched an old episode of Wheeler Dealers recently, (and gritted my teeth for the bits that had Brewer in them) because in the episode, Ed China was extolling the virtues of waterless coolant in a TR6, which apparently suffered from overheating issues.
He said it could deal with temps down to minus 40 without freezing, and up to180 degrees (before boiling) and would never need changing, and that it cured overheating issues in that particular car.
If anyone has used it and found it to work as advertised, I would be very interested, or is it just an expensive fad, which does not quite do what it says on the tin?
I watched an old episode of Wheeler Dealers recently, (and gritted my teeth for the bits that had Brewer in them) because in the episode, Ed China was extolling the virtues of waterless coolant in a TR6, which apparently suffered from overheating issues.
He said it could deal with temps down to minus 40 without freezing, and up to180 degrees (before boiling) and would never need changing, and that it cured overheating issues in that particular car.
If anyone has used it and found it to work as advertised, I would be very interested, or is it just an expensive fad, which does not quite do what it says on the tin?
just a paid promotion on wheeler dealer
i dont like the sound of it , have a minor breakdown out in the middle of nowhere theres always some tap /bottled water you can use to get home , not gonna find that stuff easily
if your standard ish car is overheating theres something wrong with it
i dont like the sound of it , have a minor breakdown out in the middle of nowhere theres always some tap /bottled water you can use to get home , not gonna find that stuff easily
if your standard ish car is overheating theres something wrong with it
I’ve had a little bit of experience with waterless coolant on classic cars, although I’m sure they have good anti corrosive properties I would say that the cooling system may run slightly hotter if anything. I believe the specific heat capacity of the waterless coolants are a fair bit lower than that of water mixed with antifreeze and doesn’t transfer heat as well.
Corrosion blocking the cooling system / radiator core is usually the issue.
Corrosion blocking the cooling system / radiator core is usually the issue.
So far as I'm aware waterless coolant only has one real advantage - higher boiling point than water. It can carry more heat energy than water BUT that energy will stay in the system (and continue to increase) unless the radiator/fan is efficient enough to get it out again.
As others have said, if you have a cooling system problem - fix it. At the most basic level dismantle, flush through with a garden hose and reassemble, refilling with 100% water. Start engine and run everything up to full temperature. Switch off, drain system, refill with proper coolant mixture.
Old Chestnut: Your engine thermostat doesn't really control temperature. All it does is open wide once the engine/coolant reach the specified temperature. After that your coolant will just go on heating up unless the radiator/fan are doing their job. Most thermostats should fail "open" for safety reasons but some don't. It's easy to check a thermostat by sticking it in a pan of cold water on the cooker and heating it up - check that it opens/closes; ideally at the design temperature.
If you have overheating concerns then putting the cabin heater on full blast can help save the day. The heater matrix/fan act as additional radiator capacity. Particularly handy if there's a thermostat issue since water to the heater doesn't usually have to go through the thermostat.
As others have said, if you have a cooling system problem - fix it. At the most basic level dismantle, flush through with a garden hose and reassemble, refilling with 100% water. Start engine and run everything up to full temperature. Switch off, drain system, refill with proper coolant mixture.
Old Chestnut: Your engine thermostat doesn't really control temperature. All it does is open wide once the engine/coolant reach the specified temperature. After that your coolant will just go on heating up unless the radiator/fan are doing their job. Most thermostats should fail "open" for safety reasons but some don't. It's easy to check a thermostat by sticking it in a pan of cold water on the cooker and heating it up - check that it opens/closes; ideally at the design temperature.
If you have overheating concerns then putting the cabin heater on full blast can help save the day. The heater matrix/fan act as additional radiator capacity. Particularly handy if there's a thermostat issue since water to the heater doesn't usually have to go through the thermostat.
Panamax said:
Most thermostats should fail "open" for safety reasons but some don't.
Most thermostats use simple wax cannister actuators, which typically fail in an intermediate position which is neither fully open nor fully closed. That's nothing to do with 'safety reasons', it's simply a characteristic of wax cannister stats that they fail this way.
ksWaterless coolant has been debated several times over the years on Lotuselan.net, usually along the lines of "will it stop the Elan overheating ?" or "if I use this, is it fill & forget ?".
There are some who love the stuff, others who don't and even some who think it's an answer in search of a question.
My personal take is that if your engine was designed and has been proven to run on water/antifreeze, then waterless coolant brings nothing to the party.
The only benefit I can see is that it is claimed to prevent localised boiling, so if your cylinder head design is such that it's got poor coolant flow in specific areas then yes, this might solve the problem. If your car had multiple warranty claims for overheating when it was in production then yep, take a look at the product.
But most cars (even those fussy Lotus's) don't have massive issues with overheating from new, it's usually wear and tear or simply lack of maintenance that leads to boiling over.
One reason often cited was the fit & forget nature, quite useful in a car that's not used regularly in a collection/museum or stored over winter. I can see that aspect but it's only one component in the cooling system, there's still thermostat/pump/hoses/connections/radiators to monitor.
For me, changing antifreeze every 2-5-10yrs depending on what you're using isn't a big deal. And certainly not worth the initial outlay or inconvenience of drying out an existing system.
There are some who love the stuff, others who don't and even some who think it's an answer in search of a question.
My personal take is that if your engine was designed and has been proven to run on water/antifreeze, then waterless coolant brings nothing to the party.
The only benefit I can see is that it is claimed to prevent localised boiling, so if your cylinder head design is such that it's got poor coolant flow in specific areas then yes, this might solve the problem. If your car had multiple warranty claims for overheating when it was in production then yep, take a look at the product.
But most cars (even those fussy Lotus's) don't have massive issues with overheating from new, it's usually wear and tear or simply lack of maintenance that leads to boiling over.
One reason often cited was the fit & forget nature, quite useful in a car that's not used regularly in a collection/museum or stored over winter. I can see that aspect but it's only one component in the cooling system, there's still thermostat/pump/hoses/connections/radiators to monitor.
For me, changing antifreeze every 2-5-10yrs depending on what you're using isn't a big deal. And certainly not worth the initial outlay or inconvenience of drying out an existing system.
Belle427 said:
I have to say I don’t see the point, seeing your money puked down a drain in a classic is madness.
There used to be another one for sale called water wetter years ago, not sure if it’s still available.
Very popular with TVR owners. There used to be another one for sale called water wetter years ago, not sure if it’s still available.
Never saw the need myself. The ACT alloy rad and a well maintained cooling system was the answer.
I was watching a YouTube video where someone was advocating that the best thing a classic car owner could do was to install a modern radiator and fan.
He said that you could keep the original radiator and hoses for when you sell the car, but if you are using it regularly, then switch to something modern. You wouldn't even need a larger radiator or fan as the newer stuff is more efficient.
He said that you could keep the original radiator and hoses for when you sell the car, but if you are using it regularly, then switch to something modern. You wouldn't even need a larger radiator or fan as the newer stuff is more efficient.
Thanks for all the replies, It seems that waterless coolant is not going to do the job, and a new larger radiator is what is required.
The issue I have is that the car gets hot when crawling along in traffic, whether this is down to the radiator (or the water pump not doing its job properly) I am not sure, because as soon as I get out of traffic, and start moving forward at 30mph plus, the temp comes back down to normal, very quickly.
The car already has a stat controlled electric radiator fan, which also seems to pull the temp down quickly once it has cut in, but in `very' warm whether even this does not cope, and the temp carries on rising.
Overall, it looks like it is the radiator which is not doing its job properly, but I also suspect the rather crude water pump, is also part of the problem at low rpm?
The issue I have is that the car gets hot when crawling along in traffic, whether this is down to the radiator (or the water pump not doing its job properly) I am not sure, because as soon as I get out of traffic, and start moving forward at 30mph plus, the temp comes back down to normal, very quickly.
The car already has a stat controlled electric radiator fan, which also seems to pull the temp down quickly once it has cut in, but in `very' warm whether even this does not cope, and the temp carries on rising.
Overall, it looks like it is the radiator which is not doing its job properly, but I also suspect the rather crude water pump, is also part of the problem at low rpm?
Might have missed it, what car is it?
Start with a full system flush and then refill with a decent coolant at the right dilution.
My Chimaera had historical overheating problems despite an ACT alloy rad. Last episode was in slow traffic due to an accident on the M5. Overheated just as you describe.
Full system flush and careful refill to ensure no air pockets and she's been fine ever since.
Start with a full system flush and then refill with a decent coolant at the right dilution.
My Chimaera had historical overheating problems despite an ACT alloy rad. Last episode was in slow traffic due to an accident on the M5. Overheated just as you describe.
Full system flush and careful refill to ensure no air pockets and she's been fine ever since.
Pan Pan Pan said:
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The car already has a stat controlled electric radiator fan, which also seems to pull the temp down quickly once it has cut in, but in `very' warm whether even this does not cope, and the temp carries on rising.
I had exactly the same thing wth a turbocharged RV8 when stuck in town traffic. The problem was heat soak. I fitted the biggest electric fan I could but that would eventually start to interfere with the ecu. The car was faultless once on the move.The car already has a stat controlled electric radiator fan, which also seems to pull the temp down quickly once it has cut in, but in `very' warm whether even this does not cope, and the temp carries on rising.
The eventual fix was a crank driven viscous fan. It would kick in before the problems arrived. I think the blades were from a Range Rover, short stubby blades. It really did shove a lot of air through the radiator.
Some of these problems with overheating in traffic can be caused by hot air recirculation round the radiator rather than a problem in the waterworks.
By the time you've got a decent air flow through the radiator from a fan, more air flow from a bigger fan only gives diminishing returns. But if you're getting 20% recirculation of hot air blown off the back of the rad being drawn back in to the front, that's 20% straight off your cooling system's capacity. If the problem only occurs at very low speed it's worth checking for that before you go wild on water pumps and fans etc.
By the time you've got a decent air flow through the radiator from a fan, more air flow from a bigger fan only gives diminishing returns. But if you're getting 20% recirculation of hot air blown off the back of the rad being drawn back in to the front, that's 20% straight off your cooling system's capacity. If the problem only occurs at very low speed it's worth checking for that before you go wild on water pumps and fans etc.
PhillipM said:
Waste of money for a worse performing product unless your car is a museum piece and sat for years at a time. In which case why you wouldn't just store it with pure coolant anyway and save a shedload of money, I don't know.
Amazing what you can sell with enough marketing.
You're wrong. Some people have claimed benefits. Be they racers or desert racers, it has it's fans. No pun intended :-)Amazing what you can sell with enough marketing.
Tyre Smoke said:
Might have missed it, what car is it?
Start with a full system flush and then refill with a decent coolant at the right dilution.
My Chimaera had historical overheating problems despite an ACT alloy rad. Last episode was in slow traffic due to an accident on the M5. Overheated just as you describe.
Full system flush and careful refill to ensure no air pockets and she's been fine ever since.
The car is Caterham X flow Supersprint, with a brass radiator, rather than the newer alloy typesStart with a full system flush and then refill with a decent coolant at the right dilution.
My Chimaera had historical overheating problems despite an ACT alloy rad. Last episode was in slow traffic due to an accident on the M5. Overheated just as you describe.
Full system flush and careful refill to ensure no air pockets and she's been fine ever since.
It is quite a large rad, being twice the thickness of the alloy versions, so I am guessing it can hold a lot more coolant, than the newer alloy type. This could be why I have been reluctant to change to the alloy type, since expensive as they are, they may not cure the overheating in traffic issue, and buying one, could turn out to be an expensive mistake.
I still am a little suspicious of the water pump, since it is the same as used, when the engine was a standard 1100 to 1600 cc Ford lump, producing less than half the horsepower.
Another option may be an electric circulating pump, but again these are not cheap, and may not solve the overheating in traffic.
One of the key clues to what is happening may be the way the engine temp comes down quickly once the car can be got moving again, and the fact that in cold weather. the rad actually keeps the engine well below the normal temp, for quite a long time, only getting to the overheating point if the car is stopped or crawling in heavy traffic for an extended period. This seems to suggests the rad is doing a `reasonable' job for `most' of the time.
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