Channel 5 - Rich Boys Toys
Discussion
Lucky ba$tards.
Did anyone just see these guys with privately owned jets? Not just any jets.... one bloke had a Lightning, one had a Buccaneer and another guy had an F-104 Starfighter!!
Toys for the seriously rich. Can you imagine the fuel bill for a days 'play' in your own Lightning!?
>> Edited by pstruck on Monday 8th August 20:27
Did anyone just see these guys with privately owned jets? Not just any jets.... one bloke had a Lightning, one had a Buccaneer and another guy had an F-104 Starfighter!!
Toys for the seriously rich. Can you imagine the fuel bill for a days 'play' in your own Lightning!?
>> Edited by pstruck on Monday 8th August 20:27
Saw it by chance just as they were looking at the Lightning. Still an amazing piece of kit. The guy said that it uses the equivalent of an average car's fuel tank capacity every five seconds, or something - surely I misheard that bit? Scarily it also needed 75 hours of checking and maintenance after each hour of flying. F'ckin 'ell!
Seriously rich blokes.
Seriously rich blokes.
Ahonen
Dude, you heard correctly. Most fast jets flying 'clean' i.e. without external tanks will go through their entire fuel load in about 10 minutes with reheat selected. That's tons of fuel... Needless to say reheat isn't used much if you're paying for the gas...
Even something 'relatively' cheap to run like a Hunter will cost you a couple of grand an hour to run.
ST
Dude, you heard correctly. Most fast jets flying 'clean' i.e. without external tanks will go through their entire fuel load in about 10 minutes with reheat selected. That's tons of fuel... Needless to say reheat isn't used much if you're paying for the gas...
Even something 'relatively' cheap to run like a Hunter will cost you a couple of grand an hour to run.
ST
I've always wondered what the deal was with owning fast jets/ex-military aircraft in the UK. I missed the programme, but I'm assuming some of these chaps weren't in the UK? (Lightnings are too loud to fly here now).
Where is the line drawn as to what you can own privately? Say you found a former Soviet republic willing to flog you a Mig 29, and had several tens of millions to buy the thing, could you do it? Or if you rocked up to BAe and asked for a new Hawk, less all the weapons kit, would they be willing/able to sell to a private punter? How much would a decent 80's-onwards fast jet set you back?
>> Edited by julianhj on Monday 8th August 21:42
Where is the line drawn as to what you can own privately? Say you found a former Soviet republic willing to flog you a Mig 29, and had several tens of millions to buy the thing, could you do it? Or if you rocked up to BAe and asked for a new Hawk, less all the weapons kit, would they be willing/able to sell to a private punter? How much would a decent 80's-onwards fast jet set you back?
>> Edited by julianhj on Monday 8th August 21:42
julianhj said:
I've always wondered what the deal was with owning fast jets/ex-military aircraft in the UK. I missed the programme, but I'm assuming some of these chaps weren't in the UK? (Lightnings are too loud to fly here now).
>> Edited by julianhj on Monday 8th August 21:42
Some of them were in the US, the rest in S.Africa (Lightning, Buccaneer).
In fact I've just found the website for the chap in SA - Thundercity - sure I've heard of it before somewhere!
www.thundercity.com/tc_main.htm
I think the effective CAA rule is "no afterburners" for
civilian operated ex-military kit, and since pretty
much every fast jet since the late fifties has had
reheated engines, it largely rules out anything
after that vintage - so the newer examples will all
be training types - L29, L39, JP spring to mind. I
think there was at least one ex-RAF high-airframe time
Hawk that was in civilian hands, but I'm not
sure if that is still flying. There are a few
Gnats in circulation as well. L29s and L39s don't
fetch huge money to buy - £60K to £160K maybe, but
a good rule of thumb is to expect to pay the up-front
capital cost over again as the annual operating cost
which means either you need deep pockets, or start
operating as a group - but even that only dilutes
the fixed cost; you're still paying for your own
fuel, and jets just burn an eye-watering amount of
the stuff.
civilian operated ex-military kit, and since pretty
much every fast jet since the late fifties has had
reheated engines, it largely rules out anything
after that vintage - so the newer examples will all
be training types - L29, L39, JP spring to mind. I
think there was at least one ex-RAF high-airframe time
Hawk that was in civilian hands, but I'm not
sure if that is still flying. There are a few
Gnats in circulation as well. L29s and L39s don't
fetch huge money to buy - £60K to £160K maybe, but
a good rule of thumb is to expect to pay the up-front
capital cost over again as the annual operating cost
which means either you need deep pockets, or start
operating as a group - but even that only dilutes
the fixed cost; you're still paying for your own
fuel, and jets just burn an eye-watering amount of
the stuff.
julianhj said:
So, say I won the next £80M EuroLottery, how much do I need to set aside for a 2006-model BAe Hawk?
Is the reheat thing just because the CAA don't want supersonic civvies? Do these rules apply in Europe?
I doubt they'd actually want the hassle of dealing
with a one-off purchase, so I reckon you'd be looking
at double-figures million for a spanking new Hawk.
But to be honest, why would you bother? - with £80M
in the bank you could fill your boots with other
people's aeroplanes in sunny places with unrestricted
airspace.
No idea about the situation in Europe, but I'd guess
they're pretty much the same. In the USA, I understand
it's a bit different - afterburning types allowed
for civilian use, but you have to have a thousand hours
(I think) previous fast jet experience before the FAA
will allow you to fly ex-military hardware as a
civilian - so, unless you're a very rich retired
military pilot, you're out of luck.
The main stumbling block with the CAA in this country regarding ex-mil fast jets is maintenance complexity. Lightnings etc are incredibly maint. intensive, and were never intended to be run by private individuals/groups, Thunder City notwithstanding.
AFAIK, I've never heard of a 'no reheat' rule from the CAA??? I know they are not keen on swept-wing jets being operated privately (swept-wing fast jets are much more likely to bite your head off than straight-wings). Despite this people are out there flying Hunters, Sea Vixens etc, but the overwhelming majority of pilots displaying these machines are ex-military. Even something like a Jet Provost requires great attention to detail and prioritisation to fly, as it'll guzzle fuel big style, and you'll sooner or later end up in the situation where you're down to 20 mins fuel and your planned destination airfield has just closed due to weather... One other snag has been that ex-mil pilots tend to be conditioned to take the ejection option much earlier if things are going tits-up. Civilian pilots have tended to try and hang-on when everything is going down the toilet and ended up hitting the ground and dying of deceleration sickness rather than going for the jumping-out option. The seat parameters in some of the older jets are quite restrictive, i.e. the Jet Provost seat won't work on or near the ground unless you've got at least 90 knots on, and it's not recommended that you pull the handle on an L29 seat if you're lower than 1000'.
The US, as has been seen, has a more 'liberal' attitude. Civvy F104 Starfighters and now a privately-run F4 Phantom on the display circuit.
Oh, and re: the supersonic runs mentioned above, plenty unreheated British fast jets will go supersonic in a dive, Hunter, Hawk included. (And Victor V-Bombers on more than one occasion...)
ST
>> Edited by speedtwelve on Tuesday 9th August 00:30
>> Edited by speedtwelve on Tuesday 9th August 00:34
AFAIK, I've never heard of a 'no reheat' rule from the CAA??? I know they are not keen on swept-wing jets being operated privately (swept-wing fast jets are much more likely to bite your head off than straight-wings). Despite this people are out there flying Hunters, Sea Vixens etc, but the overwhelming majority of pilots displaying these machines are ex-military. Even something like a Jet Provost requires great attention to detail and prioritisation to fly, as it'll guzzle fuel big style, and you'll sooner or later end up in the situation where you're down to 20 mins fuel and your planned destination airfield has just closed due to weather... One other snag has been that ex-mil pilots tend to be conditioned to take the ejection option much earlier if things are going tits-up. Civilian pilots have tended to try and hang-on when everything is going down the toilet and ended up hitting the ground and dying of deceleration sickness rather than going for the jumping-out option. The seat parameters in some of the older jets are quite restrictive, i.e. the Jet Provost seat won't work on or near the ground unless you've got at least 90 knots on, and it's not recommended that you pull the handle on an L29 seat if you're lower than 1000'.
The US, as has been seen, has a more 'liberal' attitude. Civvy F104 Starfighters and now a privately-run F4 Phantom on the display circuit.
Oh, and re: the supersonic runs mentioned above, plenty unreheated British fast jets will go supersonic in a dive, Hunter, Hawk included. (And Victor V-Bombers on more than one occasion...)
ST
>> Edited by speedtwelve on Tuesday 9th August 00:30
>> Edited by speedtwelve on Tuesday 9th August 00:34
speedtwelve said:
AFAIK, I've never heard of a 'no reheat' rule from the CAA???
I think the effective CAA strategy was that 'high'
performance jets (== afterburning) would not be
allowed civilian operation in the UK. Agreed that
type complexity is also a major issue. That being
said, the CAA works in mysterious ways....
Occaisionally an old F-16A or F/A-18A comes up for sale (there was one on eBay a couple of years ago) but usually they are not allowed to be taken out of the US (security reasons I suppose).
I imagine you could pick up an older MiG 29 or something but you'd have to keep it somewhere where government officials are less strict in regulations
I have seen an Mi-24 Hind D for sale though, Imagine parking one of those in your backyard
I imagine you could pick up an older MiG 29 or something but you'd have to keep it somewhere where government officials are less strict in regulations
I have seen an Mi-24 Hind D for sale though, Imagine parking one of those in your backyard
julianhj said:I did hear you can pick up a hawk (not the 2006 one though) for about £5m.
So, say I won the next £80M EuroLottery, how much do I need to set aside for a 2006-model BAe Hawk?
Is the reheat thing just because the CAA don't want supersonic civvies? Do these rules apply in Europe?
You can always buy your own "mini" fighter
ATG's Javelin:
About $2.8million US.
www.avtechgroup.com/index.asp
ErnestM
ATG's Javelin:
About $2.8million US.
www.avtechgroup.com/index.asp
ErnestM
Graham.J said:
So, say I won the next £80M EuroLottery, how much do I need to set aside for a 2006-model BAe Hawk?
Is the reheat thing just because the CAA don't want supersonic civvies? Do these rules apply in Europe?
I did hear you can pick up a hawk (not the 2006 one though) for about £5m.
A brand new Hawk costs around $15-18million USD depending on spec.
A MiG 29 is almost reasonable at about $20million
F-16C/D and Saab Gripen $27.5 Million
those prices btw are the rough prices countries pay for them, not private individuals, though I'm sure if you went to them with a 'blank cheque' something could be arranged.
An L39 isn't that far off a Hawk performance wise and blows it away in bang for your buck. Also at the prices available there is much more interesting stuff available.
Su-25UB $2million
www.aviatorsale.com/aix3789/
Slim pickings at the moment on this site, I have seen lots of interesting aircraft go through it though, including a Jaguar International!
www.aviatorsale.com/Warbird_And_Classic/
Plenty of Mi24s for scaring the neighbours
www.b-americanboats.com/mi-24.html
www.asiatradingonline.com/russianhelicopter24.htm
few MiG 21s about
www.nzwarbirds.org.nz/mig21.html
www.aerohunter.com/addetail.php/BSR/1/A:ID/1440/MK/213/TY/16
info on MiG29 and F/A18 on eBay
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3495499.stm
Swiss Mirage IIIs sold off at auction.
www.gr.admin.ch/internet/armasuisse/en/tools/newslist/13mirage.html
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