Refundable Deposit - Nursery Changed T&C's
Discussion
Just after some advice from the legal gurus here.
3 years ago when my daughter started nursery we were asked to pay a £50 refundable deposit (not exactly sure what it was a deposit on...).
Today was her last day and when my wife asked about the deposit she was told that the T&C's changed since we paid the deposit, so it's no longer refundable.
I'm not going to lose sleep over £50, but as a matter of principle surely she can't retrospectively change the terms on a refundable deposit?
3 years ago when my daughter started nursery we were asked to pay a £50 refundable deposit (not exactly sure what it was a deposit on...).
Today was her last day and when my wife asked about the deposit she was told that the T&C's changed since we paid the deposit, so it's no longer refundable.
I'm not going to lose sleep over £50, but as a matter of principle surely she can't retrospectively change the terms on a refundable deposit?
King David said:
Just after some advice from the legal gurus here.
3 years ago when my daughter started nursery we were asked to pay a £50 refundable deposit (not exactly sure what it was a deposit on...).
Today was her last day and when my wife asked about the deposit she was told that the T&C's changed since we paid the deposit, so it's no longer refundable.
I'm not going to lose sleep over £50, but as a matter of principle surely she can't retrospectively change the terms on a refundable deposit?
Clearly not!3 years ago when my daughter started nursery we were asked to pay a £50 refundable deposit (not exactly sure what it was a deposit on...).
Today was her last day and when my wife asked about the deposit she was told that the T&C's changed since we paid the deposit, so it's no longer refundable.
I'm not going to lose sleep over £50, but as a matter of principle surely she can't retrospectively change the terms on a refundable deposit?
Canon_Fodder said:
What do you have in writing OP?
Commercial contracts often do have a clause saying the terms can be changed, but a) this doesn't sound a commercial matter and b) even then it's subject to notice being given
I'm trying to dig out any old paperwork, but not sure what we've kept.Commercial contracts often do have a clause saying the terms can be changed, but a) this doesn't sound a commercial matter and b) even then it's subject to notice being given
Apparently notice was given, but this was likely as part of the update emails that they periodically sent which were notorious for including pages of waffle and hiding bad news at the end.
Would there be a requirement for any changes to T&C's to be clearly sign-posted in correspondence?
ETA - I've found copy of their Fee's PDF on a cached version of their website. It states:
Nursery Fees Document said:
A Registration fee of £100 is payable on application to 
. Half of the registration fee (£50) will cover administration costs, the remaining £50 will be refunded onto your final term’s invoice at the Centre.
I can't find the T&C's from when we started. But the current terms on their website does say that T&C's will periodically update. But I still don't see how would allow them to renage on a previously agreed refundable deposit?. Half of the registration fee (£50) will cover administration costs, the remaining £50 will be refunded onto your final term’s invoice at the Centre.Edited by King David on Thursday 21st July 15:08
I had something very similar when my daughter left nursery last year at this time, I had to chase them on numerous occasions and got fobbed off. I got to the point when I said I wanted the nurseries formal complaints procedure and wanted to know which authority I could complain to and they suddenly sent my £100 deposit back via transfer, no further acknowledgement from them.
It did become a point of principle rather than the fact I needed the money, it made me think that Nurseries must make a small fortune every year over not refunding deposits.
My advice is keep at them, and involve the education authority or ombudsman next, I suspect the threat of it will get you your refund
It did become a point of principle rather than the fact I needed the money, it made me think that Nurseries must make a small fortune every year over not refunding deposits.
My advice is keep at them, and involve the education authority or ombudsman next, I suspect the threat of it will get you your refund
Jamescrs said:
I had something very similar when my daughter left nursery last year at this time, I had to chase them on numerous occasions and got fobbed off. I got to the point when I said I wanted the nurseries formal complaints procedure and wanted to know which authority I could complain to and they suddenly sent my £100 deposit back via transfer, no further acknowledgement from them.
It did become a point of principle rather than the fact I needed the money, it made me think that Nurseries must make a small fortune every year over not refunding deposits.
My advice is keep at them, and involve the education authority or ombudsman next, I suspect the threat of it will get you your refund
It's not the first time they've done something like this - they tried to keep charging us a 'holding fee' during the first lockdown and have appeared in the local paper more than once.It did become a point of principle rather than the fact I needed the money, it made me think that Nurseries must make a small fortune every year over not refunding deposits.
My advice is keep at them, and involve the education authority or ombudsman next, I suspect the threat of it will get you your refund
It's a shame as my daughter absolutely loved it there and the frontline staff are incredible. I agree, it seems like the tactic is to refuse and first and assume that >50% of parent's will not bother chasing.
Ask them to put it in writing. Then you need to send them a formal letter advising that they're breaking the law and instructing them to refund the payment, advising that you will take appropriate legal action (in reality money claimback/small claims etc) should they neglect to do so. Keep it brief and to the point, however once you have a resolution I'd be putting the word out amongst fellow parents - that's fraud/theft and absolutely stinks!
Of the £100 paid, the £50 registration fee seems fair enough but the £50 'deposit' does not. Taking the money would not seem to fit the definition of 'deposit' in the legal sense, given that it is neither part payment nor was it necessary to secure performance of the contract by the seller. The claims of it being non-refundable by the nursery are nonsensical, given that the contract has now been performed, i.e. term has finished and your daughter has left, and the contractual relationship ended. There is no reason why the deposit, if it ever was such a thing in the first place, can be deemed non-refundable as we are now in the post-contract period.
The trouble with all this is that we are only talking about £50. It's a sum of money worth having, but it's not worth moving heaven and earth over. A solicitor isn't likely to be interested as the sum will be below their de minimis value. The Small Claims Court, MCOL and similar, charge £35 just to get the wheels turning; there are certain circumstances in which the fee is non-refundable (genuinely) too, so you might only end up with £15.
How much is your time worth?
The trouble with all this is that we are only talking about £50. It's a sum of money worth having, but it's not worth moving heaven and earth over. A solicitor isn't likely to be interested as the sum will be below their de minimis value. The Small Claims Court, MCOL and similar, charge £35 just to get the wheels turning; there are certain circumstances in which the fee is non-refundable (genuinely) too, so you might only end up with £15.
How much is your time worth?
Appreciate the sense check from everyone and it does sound as unreasonable as I first thought.
It’s £50, so I’m not going to lose sleep or get ill over it. But it’s my £50, so it’s worth a few emails and making myself a nuisance over.
I agree that I’ll definitely be putting the word out about this when (if) I get a satisfactory resolution.
It’s £50, so I’m not going to lose sleep or get ill over it. But it’s my £50, so it’s worth a few emails and making myself a nuisance over.
I agree that I’ll definitely be putting the word out about this when (if) I get a satisfactory resolution.
What was the deposit for? A guarantee against breakage of equipment, toys etc? If so, presumably they can say something got broken above that value, so no deposit to return? They'd have to document it though.
Just a £50 'returnable' deposit doesn't make sense unless that deposit was against something. In case you didn't pay their fees? In that case £50 is probably a drop in the ocean?
Just a £50 'returnable' deposit doesn't make sense unless that deposit was against something. In case you didn't pay their fees? In that case £50 is probably a drop in the ocean?
They aren't refusing to return your refundable deposit, they are saying the T&Cs have changed and it is no longer refundable. You have only posted the original T&Cs and not the revised terms. It is perfectly normal in B2C contracts to allow unilateral changes, all of your banking and utility contracts will have such terms. Unless they really are scammers they would have written to you at some point, stating a change in terms and probably offering the opportunity to withdraw your child and claim your refundable deposit. You didn't and in doing so accepted the new terms, again all normal stuff. Not saying it is good behaviour, would have expected to honour existing contracts and change future ones. However, providing they followed due process perfectly legal. The question is can they show you were reasonably informed and gave consent (by continuing to take the service)
King David said:
Appreciate the sense check from everyone and it does sound as unreasonable as I first thought.
It’s £50, so I’m not going to lose sleep or get ill over it. But it’s my £50, so it’s worth a few emails and making myself a nuisance over.
I agree that I’ll definitely be putting the word out about this when (if) I get a satisfactory resolution.
We had the same, over the years we'd experienced creative calculations, bizarre Explanations as to how I and others had worked a figure out suddenly it appeared to include weekends (holidays away) etc.It’s £50, so I’m not going to lose sleep or get ill over it. But it’s my £50, so it’s worth a few emails and making myself a nuisance over.
I agree that I’ll definitely be putting the word out about this when (if) I get a satisfactory resolution.
So when it cane to similar we paid our last one month prior and then we were in the driving seat for deposit and any goodbye calculations.
redjohn said:
They aren't refusing to return your refundable deposit, they are saying the T&Cs have changed and it is no longer refundable. You have only posted the original T&Cs and not the revised terms. It is perfectly normal in B2C contracts to allow unilateral changes, all of your banking and utility contracts will have such terms. Unless they really are scammers they would have written to you at some point, stating a change in terms and probably offering the opportunity to withdraw your child and claim your refundable deposit. You didn't and in doing so accepted the new terms, again all normal stuff. Not saying it is good behaviour, would have expected to honour existing contracts and change future ones. However, providing they followed due process perfectly legal. The question is can they show you were reasonably informed and gave consent (by continuing to take the service)
So to recap, it's entirely OK to take fifty quid from someone and explicitly state that it is a refundable deposit and enter into a contract to the effect, and then at some unspecified point in the future write them a letter and tell them that actually you've decided to keep it?No it's not OK, they have to advise you and reasons.
Credit cards et Al don't change them willy nilly they have to forewarn you.
Otherwise B2C it would be rampant with this happening all the time if you could decide on spec and not forewarn.
I'd ask them for proof that they changed their T&Cs and that communication.
Have you fully paid up now? If not do what we did. If they chase you for more, point them towards your stance.
Credit cards et Al don't change them willy nilly they have to forewarn you.
Otherwise B2C it would be rampant with this happening all the time if you could decide on spec and not forewarn.
I'd ask them for proof that they changed their T&Cs and that communication.
Have you fully paid up now? If not do what we did. If they chase you for more, point them towards your stance.
Maybe a joint letter from a number of parents in the same boat might nudge them a little bit to refund the deposit as stated if they are unable to provide proof of a change in T&Cs. To be fair even if the change was documented in an email/newsletter/bulletin then it may be deemed as "unfair" as this should be separate communication with this as the only subject matter. I would imagine they hope to make a recurrent chunk of money from this if nobody challenges it. I am with you on the amount not being a huge sum but it is the principle and it may help other families down the line to highlight the issue
If not letter before action and the threat of small claims for a number of deposits you would imagine do the trick
If not letter before action and the threat of small claims for a number of deposits you would imagine do the trick
IJWS15 said:
mgv8 said:
You cant change a contract after that fact!
You can if the agreed terms allow it.Example credit card terms can change without your agreement.
So the nursery doesn't have a legal leg to stand on but, as others have said, will hope the OP can't be bothered to argue too hard.
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