Brake Shake

[bobski1]

2008, E61-LCI, 535d m-sport

Car has developed brake shake over the last few months and slowly getting worse and struggling really to figure out what it is/can be.

- All the vibration is coming through the steering wheel rather than the pedal so that me it isn't warped discs/pads. They have been changes around 15k ago.
- I've changed the alloys and had them checked for and they are straight and nothing adverse there.
- More severe at high speeds and gets worse and worse over a journey.
- It shakes and then as you get to a slower speed just disappears.
- When braking the car and pedal feels solid and doesn't veer in any direction.
- When driving there is play in the steering, you can move it a little side to side before the car starts to move. When it shakes it seems that play is what is shaking.


Possible issues
- Power steering pump has a slight leak
- Drop links need changing as flagged in the MOT

Is there anything else I could be missing, really want to get this nipped in the bud once and for all.

[d_a_n1979]

Could be all sorts...

Suspension bushes and/or ball joints
Top mounts
Brake pad deposits
Unevenly worn tyres
Unevenly worn discs/pads
Crap between disc mating surfaces etc

My previous F01 had similar issues; all new suspension up front bar a few arms that had been replaced just before I bought the car; you can see here (2nd post down) the issue:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Lower arm ball joints had failed in less than 4 months (cheap unbranded parts used)! Couldn't have seen it unless the arm was removed as there was barely any play when it was in situ!

[bobski1]

control arms, each side has a front and rear, is there any one that is most likely to have gone? quite expensive to do front and rear on both sides...

I did check under and there wasn't much play in them but like yours it might need removing first.

[d_a_n1979]

bobski1 said:

control arms, each side has a front and rear, is there any one that is most likely to have gone? quite expensive to do front and rear on both sides...

I did check under and there wasn't much play in them but like yours it might need removing first.

Unfortunately until you remove them, you'll not suss what's failed/failing...

Moog/Meyle/TRW arms etc aren't that expensive - you'll find them all via BMWmotormec/C3BMW on eBay and Moog from your local motorfactors

[bobski1]

d_a_n1979 said:

Unfortunately until you remove them, you'll not suss what's failed/failing...

Moog/Meyle/TRW arms etc aren't that expensive - you'll find them all via BMWmotormec/C3BMW on eBay and Moog from your local motorfactors

I was going with Lemforder ones. Wanted to do it once and not have to mess about with them again for a while.

On your image it looks like you did the front control arms instead of the rears

Edited by bobski1 on Monday 1st August 12:23

[d_a_n1979]

bobski1 said:

d_a_n1979 said:

Unfortunately until you remove them, you'll not suss what's failed/failing...

Moog/Meyle/TRW arms etc aren't that expensive - you'll find them all via BMWmotormec/C3BMW on eBay and Moog from your local motorfactors

I was going with Lemforder ones. Wanted to do it once and not have to mess about with them again for a while.

On your image it looks like you did the front control arms instead of the rears

Edited by bobski1 on Monday 1st August 12:23

Only did the front arms in that bit of work yes; rears were absolutely fine and only around a year old and TRW arms (so had been replaced once already)

The fronts were shot (cheap crap), so that's why I replaced them all; more so that even after the MOT passed fully clean, I was still having braking vibrations and vibrations at speed when driving!

You can see why with that failed ball joint

[bobski1]

Set ordered, gone for drop links as well as front (front) and front (rear) control arms for both sides.

I've done as much reading as I possibly can and it does sound like it is a bearing/bush somewhere. There aren't any other symptoms that would point in the direction of something else.

Wallet is a little lighter but hopefully the drive is much smoother.

[bigdom]

Fairly confident it will be lower control arms, I had the issue on mine a couple of years ago.

I thought it was just a disc issue, but turned out they were already well below the minimum. If this has been going on a while, I've been led to believe the discs might need a light skim, but you'll only know once swapped.

Rear arms, less of an issue, and under load from the self levelling. Mine passed the MOT, but were fubar.

[bobski1]

What torque should the arms be set to?

this guide seems to have everything to 80Nm (https://club.autodoc.co.uk/pdf-manuals/5-e60/saloon/lower-arm-of-front-suspension/EN-How-to-change-front-lower-arm-on-BMW-E60-replacement-guide.pdf)

Edited by bobski1 on Friday 5th August 08:29

[d_a_n1979]

bobski1 said:

What torque should the arms be set to?

Think this should cover it (use E60 specs)

Don't forget that the arms need to be fitted, bolts tightened but then only fully torqued when the suspension is under full load (ideally the cars on a 4 post ramp or on the ground/stands etc)

https://workshop-manuals.com/bmw/5_series_e60/530d...front_axle/12__struts_w.rubber_mounts/1_azdcontrol_arms_and_struts/

Al la something like this:

[bobski1]

d_a_n1979 said:

Think this should cover it (use E60 specs)

Don't forget that the arms need to be fitted, bolts tightened but then only fully torqued when the suspension is under full load (ideally the cars on a 4 post ramp or on the ground/stands etc)

https://workshop-manuals.com/bmw/5_series_e60/530d...front_axle/12__struts_w.rubber_mounts/1_azdcontrol_arms_and_struts/

Al la something like this:

got the use of a 4 post so hopefully should be enough, the autodoc is misleading a little as they use a hydraulic jack to hold the disc/hub and torque which I was always told was wrong and confirmed by your image.

The link is spot on thank you. I don't quite follow the names though

Edited by bobski1 on Friday 5th August 08:57

[d_a_n1979]

bobski1 said:

d_a_n1979 said:

Think this should cover it (use E60 specs)

Don't forget that the arms need to be fitted, bolts tightened but then only fully torqued when the suspension is under full load (ideally the cars on a 4 post ramp or on the ground/stands etc)

https://workshop-manuals.com/bmw/5_series_e60/530d...front_axle/12__struts_w.rubber_mounts/1_azdcontrol_arms_and_struts/

Al la something like this:

got the use of a 4 post so hopefully should be enough, the autodoc is misleading a little as they use a hydraulic jack to hold the disc/hub and torque which I was always told was wrong and confirmed by your image.

The link is spot on thank you. I don't quite follow the names though

Edited by bobski1 on Friday 5th August 08:57

Yeah; Autodoc's videos are a bit crap at times etc...

Always best with the suspension of the car under full load, of the car, not just being jacked up etc!

[bobski1]

tension strut - front control arm (no. 11 on realoem)
- hub ball joint - 165Nm
- sub frame bush - 100Nm

control arm - rear control arm (no. 16 on realoem)
- hub ball joint - 80Nm
- sub frame bush - 100Nm

Headlight level sensor - 7Nm

Drop link - 65Nm

not sure on the clamp which goes around the strut or the bracket which holds the drop link?

Edited by bobski1 on Friday 5th August 11:03

[bobski1]

Well, after a day of fighting corroded ball joints I have to report that it hasn't changed and at the moment made it worse. Now between 50-70mph I get the shake when driving. Now that the control arms are tight it must be stressing something which is now making it worse. Only things left I can think of are:

Dampers
Bearings
Anti roll bar

I think I'm going to get the wheels rebalanced and see what that does. I honestly cannot think of what else this could be unless it's steering rack/pump related but given changing the arms has made it worse I don't think it could be that. Any other guidance would be seriously appreciated, tearing out what little hair I have left.

@dan - is Gonzo from forum5 contactable in anyway? Don't really know who else has knowledge like him and might be able to point me in a direction I've not thought about.

I haven't looked at anything in the rear but I might have to look there once everything on the front is changed.

[MikeM6]

I had similar, turned out the discs were warping due to excessive paint on the wheel at the back, causing excess heat build up. Did not know it was a thing, but it warped discs on about 1k miles

[bobski1]

MikeM6 said:

I had similar, turned out the discs were warping due to excessive paint on the wheel at the back, causing excess heat build up. Did not know it was a thing, but it warped discs on about 1k miles

Was this paint on the face that mates with the hub? None of my wheels have this. One place which returned left paint on there and I asked them to remove it for this reason.

I think I'm going to get the wheels balanced and start checking some of this stuff again. Although if it was warped discs would I not feel that through the pedal as this issue is coming through the steering wheel only

I should also add no matter how badly it's shaking as soon as speed drops to 25mph or less it stops

[bobski1]

After a few hours in the car few more bits of information which might help.

- car appears to have no issues before 25mph
- after control arm change feel more solid at slower speeds and steering feels more direct
- vibration between 50-70, feels like a shake every 3-4s which lasts about 3-4s.
- when driver 70(ish) if I let the car cruise down to 50 then brake no issues at all and it's perfectly steady.
- hard acceleration and hard braking seem to be less affected by the shaking

[MikeM6]

bobski1 said:

Was this paint on the face that mates with the hub? None of my wheels have this. One place which returned left paint on there and I asked them to remove it for this reason.

I think I'm going to get the wheels balanced and start checking some of this stuff again. Although if it was warped discs would I not feel that through the pedal as this issue is coming through the steering wheel only

I should also add no matter how badly it's shaking as soon as speed drops to 25mph or less it stops

Yes it was where it mates with the hub. I was getting violent wheel shake and the discs were new, l suspension and wheel balancing ruled out.

I only noticed the shaking when braking moderately, so gentle braking did no cause shaking.

The wheels were sorted and new discs have cured it (so far)

[d_a_n1979]

bobski1 said:

Well, after a day of fighting corroded ball joints I have to report that it hasn't changed and at the moment made it worse. Now between 50-70mph I get the shake when driving. Now that the control arms are tight it must be stressing something which is now making it worse. Only things left I can think of are:

Dampers
Bearings
Anti roll bar

I think I'm going to get the wheels rebalanced and see what that does. I honestly cannot think of what else this could be unless it's steering rack/pump related but given changing the arms has made it worse I don't think it could be that. Any other guidance would be seriously appreciated, tearing out what little hair I have left.

@dan - is Gonzo from forum5 contactable in anyway? Don't really know who else has knowledge like him and might be able to point me in a direction I've not thought about.

I haven't looked at anything in the rear but I might have to look there once everything on the front is changed.

I've no idea sorry pal. Try the BMW 5 FORUMS Facebook group & see if he's on there

Does sound to me that it could be alloy wheel related

Did the same on my previous 7 series. Had the wheels balanced and tracking redone at a Hunter Alignment place and they properly cocked it all up

My pal redid the tracking and my local MOT place rebalanced all 8 wheels (inc winter set) and the 4 alloys on the 7'er were all out. Made such a difference!

[bobski1]

Wheels rebalanced and not a massive difference in the 50-70 range. Will try tracking again.

Going to have a look at discs, pads & caliper again to see if anything has gotten worse before throwing more money at it. Sticking caliper seems to be a favourite on another forum so that I can check and possibly sort for cheap if one is sticking. Although I can't feel the shake through the pedal so I'm still not sure if it's brake related but could be wrong

After that it's more part replacement