Ceiling mounted centre speaker anyone?
Discussion
Hi Folks,
Planning out my cinema room as part of a home refurb. I have one issue in the room which is the citing of the centre speaker. As I am mounting a projector in-front of floor to ceiling window I don’t have the option to install a centre in the wall. I was wondering if anyone had any luck with ceiling mounted centre speakers and could recommend?
JD
Planning out my cinema room as part of a home refurb. I have one issue in the room which is the citing of the centre speaker. As I am mounting a projector in-front of floor to ceiling window I don’t have the option to install a centre in the wall. I was wondering if anyone had any luck with ceiling mounted centre speakers and could recommend?
JD
It's a tricky one............the ear/brain is very good at locating sound sources and it's disconcerting to see an image located on the screen but the audio coming from a source positioned some distance away.
One option that I've heard work pretty well is to have a pair of speakers mounted either side of the screen but wired in parallel i.e fed with the the same signal. Their output should combine to create a phantom centre sound source.
Is it possible to borrow some speakers from a mate and simulate the effects? i.e how poor does it sound with a speaker high up and dislocated from the visuals?...........alternatively does the 'phantom' centre option sound more convincing?
One option that I've heard work pretty well is to have a pair of speakers mounted either side of the screen but wired in parallel i.e fed with the the same signal. Their output should combine to create a phantom centre sound source.
Is it possible to borrow some speakers from a mate and simulate the effects? i.e how poor does it sound with a speaker high up and dislocated from the visuals?...........alternatively does the 'phantom' centre option sound more convincing?
Why on earth would you want to do that? You can have a phantom centre with your stereo left and right speakers there’s no reason to have them playing the same signal. You just tell the avr you don’t have a centre and it will reproduce the sounds through the L and R as well as them playing their role. It can sound decent depending on the quality of the speakers.
I still have a centre though.
I still have a centre though.
I don't know if you have the room/ceiling to do it, but if you can,a couple of companies make in ceiling speakers which are angled
They are pretty effective in my experience.
One I have used in the past is angled at 30 degrees -
https://www.paradigm.com/en/in-ceiling-speakers/ci...
They are pretty effective in my experience.
One I have used in the past is angled at 30 degrees -
https://www.paradigm.com/en/in-ceiling-speakers/ci...
It's all personal taste but I've never been blown away by any projector and similarly not by any ceiling speakers.
Depending on budget, Totem make some very impressive and slender wall speakers. Also, even the base Anthem 540 amplifier can wipe the floor with most receivers.
Centre speaker is often a problem area due to size but shouldn't be necessary at all if you've got a decent stereo pair at the front giving a good soundstage. Similarly a sub may not be needed with decent main speakers.
IMO it's important to focus on sound quality and not just the number of channels.
Depending on budget, Totem make some very impressive and slender wall speakers. Also, even the base Anthem 540 amplifier can wipe the floor with most receivers.
Centre speaker is often a problem area due to size but shouldn't be necessary at all if you've got a decent stereo pair at the front giving a good soundstage. Similarly a sub may not be needed with decent main speakers.
IMO it's important to focus on sound quality and not just the number of channels.
I had to do this with my cinema / lounge install and went with a complete GoldenEar set up. Not ideal, but actually very very good
5.2.2 Atmos with thier Invisa HTR7000 (the 8000 wasnt out then) as the angled, in-ceiling 8" centre and then again for atmos duties.
Works very well and no one has yet identified the centre channel coming from above. We sit about 10ft from the bi-folds and screen
5.2.2 Atmos with thier Invisa HTR7000 (the 8000 wasnt out then) as the angled, in-ceiling 8" centre and then again for atmos duties.
Works very well and no one has yet identified the centre channel coming from above. We sit about 10ft from the bi-folds and screen
Edited by VEX on Thursday 4th August 18:58
Panamax said:
Similarly a sub may not be needed with decent main speakers.
You do need a sub for a good home cinema, even if you have full range speakers for the front.If you don't have one you are not getting the LFE channel which is more importanth than you think.
The easiest way to check this out is to listen to a decent/good home cinema working (that has a sub) and switch it off.
All the life goes out of the room and the sound goes flat and dead.
It surprises most people the first time they experience it.
tonyg58 said:
You do need a sub for a good home cinema, even if you have full range speakers for the front.
If you don't have one you are not getting the LFE channel which is more importanth than you think.
The easiest way to check this out is to listen to a decent/good home cinema working (that has a sub) and switch it off.
All the life goes out of the room and the sound goes flat and dead.
It surprises most people the first time they experience it.
Totally agree.If you don't have one you are not getting the LFE channel which is more importanth than you think.
The easiest way to check this out is to listen to a decent/good home cinema working (that has a sub) and switch it off.
All the life goes out of the room and the sound goes flat and dead.
It surprises most people the first time they experience it.
The way to tell if a cinema sub is working will is to turn it off when watching a movie and see how much is actually missing.
The sign of a well integrated sysyem.
People have got used to focusing on number of channels rather then sound quality and have also got used to weedy speakers that need the support of a sub. Many are staggered if you demonstrate something as simple as TV between a really good pair of stereo speakers.
In a proper cinema installation you're always going to need a hefty centre speaker to get best results, but nobody wants one in front of their flat screen TV and the end result is inevitable compromised.
When you are in the real world sound rarely comes from above your head so ceiling speakers are another significant compromise.
In a proper cinema installation you're always going to need a hefty centre speaker to get best results, but nobody wants one in front of their flat screen TV and the end result is inevitable compromised.
When you are in the real world sound rarely comes from above your head so ceiling speakers are another significant compromise.
Op,
Imo high centre is the most bloody awful install possible. The centre in the cinema in Parrs Wood is to high and it does your t
t in!
If you can't have a well positioned centre, but can have well positioned l/r, imo run with no centre. I've seen the angled tweeter / even those motorised "tilt the whole speaker when it's on" in ceilings, and i don't think they work - us humans are pretty damn good at locating sounds, must be either from the hunting or the running away from sabre tooth tigres when we were evolving or something!
For the sub debate, subs are awesome, but the "turn it off and see" is a bit misleading imo. If you have the system set with sub and the surrounds not full range then obvs you lose everything! The only fair comparison would be to compare sub on vs full range speakers and config to no sub,etc. Not an "on / off" operation! Again preference, but I'd rather have decent full range floorstanders no sub than a sub / sat system (but then i listen to a lot of music).
Of course, if you can accommodate a sub then do so
Imo high centre is the most bloody awful install possible. The centre in the cinema in Parrs Wood is to high and it does your t
t in!If you can't have a well positioned centre, but can have well positioned l/r, imo run with no centre. I've seen the angled tweeter / even those motorised "tilt the whole speaker when it's on" in ceilings, and i don't think they work - us humans are pretty damn good at locating sounds, must be either from the hunting or the running away from sabre tooth tigres when we were evolving or something!
For the sub debate, subs are awesome, but the "turn it off and see" is a bit misleading imo. If you have the system set with sub and the surrounds not full range then obvs you lose everything! The only fair comparison would be to compare sub on vs full range speakers and config to no sub,etc. Not an "on / off" operation! Again preference, but I'd rather have decent full range floorstanders no sub than a sub / sat system (but then i listen to a lot of music).
Of course, if you can accommodate a sub then do so
I repeat. If you do not have a sub for home cinema, you are missing the LFE channel which is very important.
This was said time and time again when I went on my first CEDIA home cinema design course in 2005.
The guy who was the lecturer stated that in his opinion the best configuration was four subwoofers (one in the middle of each wall) for best synchronisation (but then again,it was 2002 and his idea of a minimum budget for a home cinema room then was $150,000, don't suppose he'll do anything for less than $250,000 if he is still in the business now).
This was said time and time again when I went on my first CEDIA home cinema design course in 2005.
The guy who was the lecturer stated that in his opinion the best configuration was four subwoofers (one in the middle of each wall) for best synchronisation (but then again,it was 2002 and his idea of a minimum budget for a home cinema room then was $150,000, don't suppose he'll do anything for less than $250,000 if he is still in the business now).
tonyg58 said:
I repeat. If you do not have a sub for home cinema, you are missing the LFE channel which is very important.
This was said time and time again when I went on my first CEDIA home cinema design course in 2005.
The guy who was the lecturer stated that in his opinion the best configuration was four subwoofers (one in the middle of each wall) for best synchronisation (but then again,it was 2002 and his idea of a minimum budget for a home cinema room then was $150,000, don't suppose he'll do anything for less than $250,000 if he is still in the business now).
I agree that in most circumstances adding a sub can make an important contribution..............but.......... I think the passage in bold is somewhat misleading and needs clarification.This was said time and time again when I went on my first CEDIA home cinema design course in 2005.
The guy who was the lecturer stated that in his opinion the best configuration was four subwoofers (one in the middle of each wall) for best synchronisation (but then again,it was 2002 and his idea of a minimum budget for a home cinema room then was $150,000, don't suppose he'll do anything for less than $250,000 if he is still in the business now).
If no subwoofer is selected on the processor / receiver then the LFE (.1) channel is sent instead to the front left and right channels. There are numerous pairs stereo speakers that have an LF response which extends below 35Hz...........and the majority of mainstream manufacturers have subs in their ranges which don't get below 35Hz.
Edited by Crackie on Saturday 6th August 20:18
tonyg58 said:
I repeat. If you do not have a sub for home cinema, you are missing the LFE channel which is very important.
This was said time and time again when I went on my first CEDIA home cinema design course in 2005.
The guy who was the lecturer stated that in his opinion the best configuration was four subwoofers (one in the middle of each wall) for best synchronisation (but then again,it was 2002 and his idea of a minimum budget for a home cinema room then was $150,000, don't suppose he'll do anything for less than $250,000 if he is still in the business now).
You were taught by someone who was incorrect.This was said time and time again when I went on my first CEDIA home cinema design course in 2005.
The guy who was the lecturer stated that in his opinion the best configuration was four subwoofers (one in the middle of each wall) for best synchronisation (but then again,it was 2002 and his idea of a minimum budget for a home cinema room then was $150,000, don't suppose he'll do anything for less than $250,000 if he is still in the business now).
You'd be missing the LFE channel IF you set sub to "yes" in the processor, but no-one sane would do that.
For locations etc, we published this white paper years ago that goes into some detail https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf
Some Gump said:
Op,
Imo high centre is the most bloody awful install possible. The centre in the cinema in Parrs Wood is to high and it does your tt in!
If you can't have a well positioned centre, but can have well positioned l/r, imo run with no centre. I've seen the angled tweeter / even those motorised "tilt the whole speaker when it's on" in ceilings, and i don't think they work - us humans are pretty damn good at locating sounds, must be either from the hunting or the running away from sabre tooth tigres when we were evolving or something!
For the sub debate, subs are awesome, but the "turn it off and see" is a bit misleading imo. If you have the system set with sub and the surrounds not full range then obvs you lose everything! The only fair comparison would be to compare sub on vs full range speakers and config to no sub,etc. Not an "on / off" operation! Again preference, but I'd rather have decent full range floorstanders no sub than a sub / sat system (but then i listen to a lot of music).
Of course, if you can accommodate a sub then do so
Thanks Some Gump, I am going to focus on decent floorstanding L/R speakers Imo high centre is the most bloody awful install possible. The centre in the cinema in Parrs Wood is to high and it does your t
t in!If you can't have a well positioned centre, but can have well positioned l/r, imo run with no centre. I've seen the angled tweeter / even those motorised "tilt the whole speaker when it's on" in ceilings, and i don't think they work - us humans are pretty damn good at locating sounds, must be either from the hunting or the running away from sabre tooth tigres when we were evolving or something!
For the sub debate, subs are awesome, but the "turn it off and see" is a bit misleading imo. If you have the system set with sub and the surrounds not full range then obvs you lose everything! The only fair comparison would be to compare sub on vs full range speakers and config to no sub,etc. Not an "on / off" operation! Again preference, but I'd rather have decent full range floorstanders no sub than a sub / sat system (but then i listen to a lot of music).
Of course, if you can accommodate a sub then do so
Some Gump said:
Op,
Imo high centre is the most bloody awful install possible. The centre in the cinema in Parrs Wood is to high and it does your tt in!
If you can't have a well positioned centre, but can have well positioned l/r, imo run with no centre. I've seen the angled tweeter / even those motorised "tilt the whole speaker when it's on" in ceilings, and i don't think they work - us humans are pretty damn good at locating sounds, must be either from the hunting or the running away from sabre tooth tigres when we were evolving or something!
Its getting a bit old now but i love digging this review out from AVS.Imo high centre is the most bloody awful install possible. The centre in the cinema in Parrs Wood is to high and it does your t
t in!If you can't have a well positioned centre, but can have well positioned l/r, imo run with no centre. I've seen the angled tweeter / even those motorised "tilt the whole speaker when it's on" in ceilings, and i don't think they work - us humans are pretty damn good at locating sounds, must be either from the hunting or the running away from sabre tooth tigres when we were evolving or something!
The same system was demo'ed at CEDIA USA in 2015 and wowed many as to what is actually possible with a good in-ceiling system.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/goldenear-ultimat...
V.
Edited by VEX on Tuesday 9th August 23:33
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