With Sportshift, everyone says never use D Mode

[Jon39]

Not a recent video, but I have only just watched it. Should be of interest to Sportshift owners.

It seems a twin plate clutch can transform the gear changing of a Sportshift Vantage. So much so, that it appears the much spoken about jerky gearchanges, become smooth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-_Dzvo9eJU

[Import]

I like using the paddle shift..I find it more engaging..

[Jon39]

Import said:

I like using the paddle shift..I find it more engaging..

You will be able to answer this (and I think it might depend on the version of Sportshift).

In the video there is reference to what BR call 'nodding dog'.
Can that be felt at higher speeds when changing gear with the paddles, or is it something which only occurs in D mode at slow speeds ?

I have a manual, so no knowledge. The SS III I think is on the V12VS, so that would have a twin plate clutch anyway.
It does sound as though the set up, after fitting a twin plate clutch to a Sportshift V8, is complex. It has been suggested that main dealers refuse to fit them.

[macdeb]

Jon39 said:

It does sound as though the set up, after fitting a twin plate clutch to a Sportshift V8, is complex. It has been suggested that main dealers refuse to fit them.

I think it's because AML hadn't made a SS version of twin plate at the time and then the cars had stopped being produced so dropped it as it would be small market. Aston dealers will not fit non-standard aftermarket clutch. I know this because when one of my engines was being replaced I asked about it being fitted whilst in pieces and they refused due to problems with warranties etc. Of which I understood though disappointing at the time.

[peteA]

Part of ‘the character’ SS III is getting the gear change right, it’s not an auto. At speed or higher revs up shifts require a lift off the throttle for a perfect shift. Lower down the revs it can offers just require a pull on the lever. Downshifts are easier.

There is an auto function but as has been suggested it’s not the best…resulting in the nodding dog scenario

I’ve only used SS III as my car is a V12 vantage S, no personal experience of the other version. I really like it and like the fact it needs to be practised and mastered, just don’t expect it to change like a conventional torque converter or even dual clutch type set up.

[LordBretSinclair]

peteA said:

I’ve only used SS III as my car is a V12 vantage S, no personal experience of the other version. I really like it and like the fact it needs to be practised and mastered, just don’t expect it to change like a conventional torque converter or even dual clutch type set up.

The difference between a V8 with early SS and a V12VS with SSIII is like night and day - I would touch the former but absolutely love the latter.

[Finding Neutral]

I was told by two different specialists that twin plates shouldn’t be fitted to the SS box.

[phumy]

Finding Neutral said:

I was told by two different specialists that twin plates shouldn’t be fitted to the SS box.

The V12 Vantage S came as standard with a twin plate from the factory.

[Jon39]

Finding Neutral said:

I was told by two different specialists that twin plates shouldn’t be fitted to the SS box.

That is why I started this topic. Thought it might be of interest to V8 Sportshift owners.

The man in this film, seems to be the only person who can improve the performance of Sportshift 1 and Sportshift 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-_Dzvo9eJU

I think it might be in another film, where he explains why main dealers will not fit twin plate clutches to V8 Sportshift cars.

[Calinours]

There is no avoiding the nodding dog syndrome with sportshift, because it is an automated manual, a manual where, in D mode something other than the driver is deciding when to cut power to change gear. A 'real' auto, a slusher of any type keeps the power on through the change. There is no way round it with a manual inc an automated one, the system has to cut power to the transmission to allow the hydraulics to disengage clutch, make the change and dump the clutch back in, just like we have to when driving any full manual. The nodding dog effect happens in D simply because we don't know precisely when the change (and lift off) is going to happen . When you change gear yourself, even with the paddles, you do know, thus unconsciously brace for the removal of the acceleration. Even the passengers know because they can see you reaching for the gearstick. Put a blindfold on a passenger and hustle through the gears in a quick car to see them furiously nod...

Making the sportshift shift faster reduces the effect, but cant make it go away. It seems that SSIII was as good as Aston Martin got it. I have a SSII system with the V12 twin plate clutch (enables faster shift) and it is also pretty good. If you think the OE system in the early V8's is bad, try driving an early classic Vanquish, or worse, some other efforts with automated manuals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_mDCBkcsr4

[macdeb]

Finding Neutral said:

I was told by two different specialists that twin plates shouldn’t be fitted to the SS box.

I don't understand why they should say that (perhaps they don't supply them). Same gearbox but with automated clutch. I also know some SS owners who have the twin plate clutch who say it's loads better to operate which makes sense having twice the friction area. The only possible downside is increased chatter at rest due to there being no springs in clutch plate, and that's same for manual. I think the confusion is linked to my earlier comment in the thread about AML not doing one and the reason why.

Edited by macdeb on Sunday 4th September 18:40

[Finding Neutral]

The ones I spoke to said they supply it for the manual but not the SS. And that it will cause issues in the SS box only that owners do such little mileage they don’t tend to find out in their ownership.

Everyone will have an opinion Ofcourse. Just relaying what I was told

[macdeb]

A little information can be a dangerous thing.

[telum01]

Not sure why a "specialist" would advise against fitting a twin-plate clutch to a Sportshift unless they're not aware of the different products available or what's different about them.

The only reason these cars didn't come with one from the very beginning was due to cost (AM chose the cheap single plate instead of a more robust but more expensive twin or triple plate clutch). A twin-plate clutch was used for the manual and Sportshift cars with V12 engines because the single-plate can't hold as much torque as those engines have, and they were also fitted to much more expensive cars so AM could justify the cost.

The single-plate clutch ended up being the Achilles' heel for cars that used it, and there were tons of complaints about them from owners and lots of prospective owners saying that clutch concerns were why they would not buy an Aston Martin. AM later offered a twin-plate clutch through their AMR brand for manual cars because there was such high demand for them, and companies like VelocityAP and DAE were selling them with great success. I assume the Sportshift version wasn't offered for financial reasons (testing the existing TCU programming with the different clutches, potential supplier pushback, etc).

The only downsides for fitting a twin-plate to a car that originally came with a single-plate is the potential for clutch (or gear) chatter when idling in neutral, and that some people are also surprised at how light the clutch pedal gets in the manual, but that's more subjective as a pro or con.

I've been using a VelocityAP twin-plate clutch in my manual '07 V8V for over 5 years and 40k miles, including several thousand miles of it being supercharged, and it hasn't missed a beat. I've also sold a bunch of them over the years without any complaints at all (other than a very small number of people commenting about the chatter and/or clutch pedal, which isn't a mystery as many of us have discussed it at length on websites, forums, and YouTube.)

Calinours said:

There is no avoiding the nodding dog syndrome with sportshift, because it is an automated manual, a manual where, in D mode something other than the driver is deciding when to cut power to change gear. A 'real' auto, a slusher of any type keeps the power on through the change. There is no way round it with a manual inc an automated one, the system has to cut power to the transmission to allow the hydraulics to disengage clutch, make the change and dump the clutch back in, just like we have to when driving any full manual. The nodding dog effect happens in D simply because we don't know precisely when the change (and lift off) is going to happen . When you change gear yourself, even with the paddles, you do know, thus unconsciously brace for the removal of the acceleration. Even the passengers know because they can see you reaching for the gearstick. Put a blindfold on a passenger and hustle through the gears in a quick car to see them furiously nod...

Making the sportshift shift faster reduces the effect, but cant make it go away. It seems that SSIII was as good as Aston Martin got it. I have a SSII system with the V12 twin plate clutch (enables faster shift) and it is also pretty good. If you think the OE system in the early V8's is bad, try driving an early classic Vanquish, or worse, some other efforts with automated manuals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_mDCBkcsr4

Well put.

Edited by telum01 on Tuesday 6th September 03:16

Edited by telum01 on Tuesday 6th September 03:22

[EVR]

telum01 said:

Well put.

Random welcome back Richard, hope all is good with you.

[telum01]

EVR said:

Random welcome back Richard, hope all is good with you.

lol thanks I'm still kicking and as busy as ever. Someone sent me the links to a couple clutch threads on here because they had some questions, figured I could chime in here, too.

[Jon39]

telum01 said:

... The only downsides for fitting a twin-plate to a car that originally came with a single-plate is the potential for clutch (or gear) chatter when idling in neutral, and that some people are also surprised at how light the clutch pedal gets in the manual, but that's more subjective as a pro or con. ...

At idle, with the clutch released and the gearbox in neutral, surely there would be no difference between single plate and twin plate clutches. In both cases, the engine is sending drive to the gearbox and the clutch is not in operation, so has no effect.

My understanding about any possible increased gear chatter (varies car to car), is that usually when a twin plate clutch is installed, a lighter flywheel is also fitted. That is what causes increased gear chatter, because the damping effect is reduced. A V8 engine is not as well balanced as a V12, so greater vibrations are transmitted through the drive train.

The simple solution for owners of V8 Vantages who often hear gear chatter before a clutch change, is to have a standard flywheel, but they can still have the benefits of a twin plate.

You are much more an engineer than me Richard, but is my description technically correct ?



EDIT - When gear chatter is noticed at idle, ensure the air conditioning is switched off. That can make a difference.

Edited by Jon39 on Tuesday 6th September 08:24

[telum01]

Jon39 said:

At idle, with the clutch released and the gearbox in neutral, surely there would be no difference between single plate and twin plate clutches. In both cases, the engine is sending drive to the gearbox and the clutch is not in operation, so has no effect.

My understanding about any possible increased gear chatter (varies car to car), is that usually when a twin plate clutch is installed, a lighter flywheel is also fitted. That is what causes increased gear chatter, because the damping effect is reduced. A V8 engine is not as well balanced as a V12, so greater vibrations are transmitted through the drive train.

The simple solution for owners of V8 Vantages who often hear gear chatter before a clutch change, is to have a standard flywheel, but they can still have the benefits of a twin plate.

You are much more an engineer than me Richard, but is my description technically correct ?



EDIT - When gear chatter is noticed at idle, ensure the air conditioning is switched off. That can make a difference.

Edited by Jon39 on Tuesday 6th September 08:24

I'm not an engineer, I just know a bunch of them I think you've summed it up really well, based on my understanding.

Raising the idle also alleviates the issue, and allows people to use a lighter flywheel for the performance benefits they give. The reason people want a lighter flywheel is because of that performance. For my customers (and myself), the feedback is always the same: better engine response for all, and smoother shifting for Sportshift, often accompanied by, "It's how the car should have been built from the factory," or something similar. Doing a twin-plate clutch is nice for longevity, but the performance benefits of the lightweight flywheel is a huge part of why people upgrade, even if it means they may have chatter.

EDIT: Turning off AC isn't an option in some places lol. I'm in Japan now and it's in mid-to-high 30s and super humid during the summer, and it was even worse when I lived in Florida. I'll take chatter over swamp-ass any day!

Edited by telum01 on Wednesday 7th September 01:53