Box Junction

[Obiwanw]

Apologies if this has been asked before, I did look around but couldn’t find a similar post.

If I’m turning right, and the exit is clear or only blocked by oncoming traffic or other traffic also turning right, I understand I can enter the box and wait.

What is supposed to happen if the exit is clear when I enter the box, except for oncoming traffic, but then the exit becomes blocked either by oncoming traffic turning left, or traffic ahead of me turning right be stopping and therefore blocking my exit? Should I expect a ticket?

Thanks

[parabolica]

Obiwanw said:

Should I expect a ticket?

Probably; this happened to me at Hammersmith "roundabout" a few years back; exit was clear when I entered, someone cut me up, blocked the exit, lights changed to red, stuck in the box with no way to move left or right to clear it and I got a ticket. Appealed it, and was rejected.

Edited by parabolica on Wednesday 14th September 12:42

[PistonTim]

Yup, if you stop in a box junction for any reason you can expect a ticket if its monitored.

I moved into one and a tt in a BMW pulled out of a side road and blocked my exit so I got stuck for a few seconds and that was enough!

[Obiwanw]

Thanks both.
You’re definitely allowed to stop in a box to turn right as far as I can see. You can even be stopped behind another car as long as you’re both turning right AFAICS. It’s when the situation changes as per the first reply it puzzles me as it’s not something under your control. If you were legally waiting in the box,I can’t see how someone else’s action can invalidate that

Edited by Obiwanw on Wednesday 14th September 16:59

[Pica-Pica]

The interesting bit is ‘if anyone causes a vehicle…’. It does not specifically state that it should be the driver of said vehicle. So, I am guessing if another person causes a vehicle to stop, they could be brought to book.

[jamei303]

Pica-Pica said:

The interesting bit is ‘if anyone causes a vehicle…’. It does not specifically state that it should be the driver of said vehicle. So, I am guessing if another person causes a vehicle to stop, they could be brought to book.

"a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction."

It doesn't say "any vehicle", so the offence is only committed by a person causing a vehicle to enter if that same vehicle has to stop.

[jamei303]

My reading of it is that if you enter and then unexpectedly find that a stationary vehicle is going to cause you to stop (exceptions aside), then you are required to find some way for your vehicle not to stop, for example by proceeding straight ahead, performing a U-turn, or otherwise exiting the hatched area, the aim being not to block the flow of traffic from another direction which is deemed more important than any inconvenience to you.

It's a bit like doing an overtake of someone doing 45mph in an NSL and then finding that because they sped up slightly or whatever, you ended up doing 65mph to complete the overtake safely. You won't have a defence to speeding because you could have backed out or not done it in the first place.

[Obiwanw]

Go ahead instead of turning is a good suggestion, if practical. Provided it’s permitted of course. It could be difficult on a box if you’re already positioned to turn right perhaps.

Assuming it’s not practical for some reason (I accept that there probably won’t be many situations where you can’t wiggle a bit and go ahead) .

Back to the original situation where I’m stationary on a box, my exit blocked by something that wasn’t there when I properly entered the box. It doesn’t seem reasonable that one should get a ticket in this situation.

[PhilAsia]

Obiwanw said:

Go ahead instead of turning is a good suggestion, if practical. Provided it’s permitted of course. It could be difficult on a box if you’re already positioned to turn right perhaps.

Assuming it’s not practical for some reason (I accept that there probably won’t be many situations where you can’t wiggle a bit and go ahead) .

Back to the original situation where I’m stationary on a box, my exit blocked by something that wasn’t there when I properly entered the box. It doesn’t seem reasonable that one should get a ticket in this situation.

If there is stationary traffic already in the road you wish to enter, do not move into the cross hatched area. If the road is obviously clear to turn into and that circumstance will not change - barring a sinkhole or truck breaking down whilst turning - then proceed onto the cross hatched area and wait.

Edited by PhilAsia on Sunday 18th September 10:00

[Obiwanw]

Yes I know not to enter if the exit road if blocked. I’m thinking about if you enter but oncoming traffic prevent you completing the turn. So you wait on the box - which is permitted. While your waiting, a oncoming car turns left and the exit that was clear isn’t anymore. But you’re sat on the box. You entered the box according to the rules, but now you can’t leave it, through no one’s fault. I’ve definitely seen that happen.

[PhilAsia]

Obiwanw said:

Yes I know not to enter if the exit road if blocked. I’m thinking about if you enter but oncoming traffic prevent you completing the turn. So you wait on the box - which is permitted. While your waiting, a oncoming car turns left and the exit that was clear isn’t anymore***. But you’re sat on the box. You entered the box according to the rules, but now you can’t leave it, through no one’s fault. I’ve definitely seen that happen.

If there was only ROOM for a few vehicles, why enter, was the point I was making.

Basically, if you can see the horizon in the road you are entering and no vehicles, AND, if approaching vehicles going forward are driving towards into a traffic free road, then yes, stop in the box. If there is even an inkling that you will not be able to complete, do not enter.

• *This comment clearly shows you had not anticipated the actions of other road users. If the road you are turning into will absolutely be 100% clear for you to turn (ie an empty road, with ample room to pass if someone turns and immediately parks, etc. Think of all reasonable scenarios), then move forward and wait.

Edited by PhilAsia on Sunday 18th September 10:31

[Obiwanw]

Then I think it becomes tricky to forecast. There could be a number of cars turning left from the oncoming traffic. It could be clear while I’m waiting then get busy. There’s no way to predict really. It doesn’t change the basic situation. I’m after the principle but I appreciate your response. I’ll ask the agency I think and post their reply.

It isn’t hypothetical as there’s a particular junction in the city where I live where I’ve seen exactly that scenario unfold.

[PhilAsia]

Obiwanw said:

Then I think it becomes tricky to forecast. There could be a number of cars turning left from the oncoming traffic. It could be clear while I’m waiting then get busy. There’s no way to predict really. It doesn’t change the basic situation. I’m after the principle but I appreciate your response. I’ll ask the agency I think and post their reply.

It isn’t hypothetical as there’s a particular junction in the city where I live where I’ve seen exactly that scenario unfold.

If it is difficult to predict, do not move forward. If you 100% know that traffic will not prevent you from turning, move forward.

Scenario 1) Right turn is narrow and difficult to see into. Heavy traffic coming towards you. DO NOT MOVE FWD as there is a chance someone will turn and stop in the road you intend to turn into, and/or traffic coming towards you could snarl up in the box junction preventing you from moving

Scenario 2) Right turn is 47 lanes wide and you can see 100 miles into the turn. Oncoming traffic is very light and free-flowing at 170mph. Enter into the junction because the world is your oyster, you got out of bed on the right side and your partner has agreed to the scenario you suggested with the Lara Croft lookalike that was all over you as you are a driving god. MOVE FWD

Edited by PhilAsia on Sunday 18th September 10:45

[trashbat]

The law is here to make of as you will: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/sched...

The turning right exemption in 3b is what you have to parse in your scenario. I think you might argue that both of your scenarios in the OP are permissible.

[PhilAsia]

trashbat said:

The law is here to make of as you will: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/sched...

The turning right exemption in 3b is what you have to parse in your scenario. I think you might argue that both of your scenarios in the OP are permissible.

Exactly. But the onus is on the driver waiting to turn right to anticipate what can reasonably expected to happen. It is reasonable to expect the narrow road to be blocked by a vehicle that turns and stops immediately to set down or pick up. A scenario that is avoided if the road is empty and very wide, as the vehicle setting down can be passed easily.

[Obiwanw]

Thanks trashbat. That’s useful. 3b seems to apply only to oncoming vehicles (which the car having turned left and blocked the exit isn’t of course),or vehicles in front of me also waiting to turn right. Maybe I have found a gap in the law

[PhilAsia]

Obiwanw said:

Thanks trashbat. That’s useful. 3b seems to apply only to oncoming vehicles (which the car having turned left and blocked the exit isn’t of course),or vehicles in front of me also waiting to turn right. Maybe I have found a gap in the law

Nope.

Rule 174
Box junctions. You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.

No wiggle room there.

[Obiwanw]

The law doesn’t mention anticipation. Whilst I agree, it would be wise not to enter the box if you can see there’s likely to be a blocked exit, the law doesn’t require you to do this. So in effect you’ve started a permitted manoeuvre but someone else has prevented you from completing it. I’ve described a potential scenario which could not be foreseen especially in busy traffic.

The point I am making is about the application of the law not what would be prudent.

[PhilAsia]

Obiwanw said:

The law doesn’t mention anticipation. Whilst I agree, it would be wise not to enter the box if you can see there’s likely to be a blocked exit, the law doesn’t require you to do this. So in effect you’ve started a permitted manoeuvre but someone else has prevented you from completing it. I’ve described a potential scenario which could not be foreseen especially in busy traffic.

The point I am making is about the application of the law not what would be prudent.

I could see what could potentially transpire. It was obvious.

I have a feeling you want to be able to do what you want to do regardless of the obviousness of normal everyday scenarios that are playing out right now. Can only lead a horse to water...

[PhilAsia]

Obiwanw said:

The point I am making is about the application of the law not what would be prudent.

The point I am making is what would be prudent to avoid the application of the law which states "You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right"...It does NOT state if you are "only stopped from doing so" at the time of entering or the time of leaving the box. Therefore, ergo, do not enter the box if there is a possibility of you not being able to complete.