11 plus exams / Grammar schools
Discussion
Hello all,
Things were very different in my day. We went to the local secondary school and that was it. No exams - I don't even think I had homework until the age of 11. We also only had 4 channels though, so I digress.
Our eldest has started year 5, and all the local parents are talking about Grammar schools, entrance exams and the 11 plus. Our boy is super smart at maths, like his mum, and pretty decent at other subjects. But the school have given no guidance about what are in these tests. I tried looking online for some practice tests, but there is so much information, it's difficult to know what is legitimate and what isn't?
Have any PH parents been through this recently, do you have any advice?
Thanks
Things were very different in my day. We went to the local secondary school and that was it. No exams - I don't even think I had homework until the age of 11. We also only had 4 channels though, so I digress.
Our eldest has started year 5, and all the local parents are talking about Grammar schools, entrance exams and the 11 plus. Our boy is super smart at maths, like his mum, and pretty decent at other subjects. But the school have given no guidance about what are in these tests. I tried looking online for some practice tests, but there is so much information, it's difficult to know what is legitimate and what isn't?
Have any PH parents been through this recently, do you have any advice?
Thanks
Which school, we went through this a few years back to get our daughter into the local grammar. It involved a year's tutoring and plenty of practice.
The entrance exam was a mixture of verbal and non-verbal reasoning, and maths.
The school says you don't need to practice, yeah right...
The entrance exam was a mixture of verbal and non-verbal reasoning, and maths.
The school says you don't need to practice, yeah right...
I have/had all mine through Grammar.
It suits some kids, you're the best to decide, but let them have a look at the papers etc. They may need little help in places, like most of us it helps to understand what you will come up against on the day and how to do it - my youngest didn't realise there would be a continued test on the back on the exam paper (but fortunately still got in) .
I know plenty of kids who were tutored and scraped in and then struggled at the school that wanted to push the kids on - which led to them perhaps not enjoying it and then leaving to go elsewhere at 6th form.
I also know plenty of kids who 'failed' and were very upset for a short time, went to the local comp and absolutely smashed it out the park in terms of exams.
We're all different. My personal view of grammar is positive.
It suits some kids, you're the best to decide, but let them have a look at the papers etc. They may need little help in places, like most of us it helps to understand what you will come up against on the day and how to do it - my youngest didn't realise there would be a continued test on the back on the exam paper (but fortunately still got in) .
I know plenty of kids who were tutored and scraped in and then struggled at the school that wanted to push the kids on - which led to them perhaps not enjoying it and then leaving to go elsewhere at 6th form.
I also know plenty of kids who 'failed' and were very upset for a short time, went to the local comp and absolutely smashed it out the park in terms of exams.
We're all different. My personal view of grammar is positive.
Moominho said:
Things were very different in my day. We went to the local secondary school and that was it.
It's not to do with time, it's where you live - there's only a few areas with grammar schools. One of my daughters teaches at a grammar school - some of the junior schools in the area coach their kids for the 11 plus and some don't. Her school runs advice days. Kids need tutoring so they're not blind-sided by the tests.
Edited by Sheepshanks on Friday 23 September 16:56
Mammasaid said:
Which school, we went through this a few years back to get our daughter into the local grammar. It involved a year's tutoring and plenty of practice.
The entrance exam was a mixture of verbal and non-verbal reasoning, and maths.
The school says you don't need to practice, yeah right...
So we live in Whetstone, in North London. It's not even necessarily a grammar school we are looking at, even the secondary schools with decent reputations rely on the 11 plus results, and sometimes also an entrance exam. The entrance exam was a mixture of verbal and non-verbal reasoning, and maths.
The school says you don't need to practice, yeah right...
Moominho said:
Hello all,
Things were very different in my day. We went to the local secondary school and that was it. No exams - I don't even think I had homework until the age of 11. We also only had 4 channels though, so I digress.
Our eldest has started year 5, and all the local parents are talking about Grammar schools, entrance exams and the 11 plus. Our boy is super smart at maths, like his mum, and pretty decent at other subjects. But the school have given no guidance about what are in these tests. I tried looking online for some practice tests, but there is so much information, it's difficult to know what is legitimate and what isn't?
Have any PH parents been through this recently, do you have any advice?
Thanks
The Grammar School will have an Open day. At the Open Day you will get (amongst other things) information about the Admissions Policy and booklets of sample questions.Things were very different in my day. We went to the local secondary school and that was it. No exams - I don't even think I had homework until the age of 11. We also only had 4 channels though, so I digress.
Our eldest has started year 5, and all the local parents are talking about Grammar schools, entrance exams and the 11 plus. Our boy is super smart at maths, like his mum, and pretty decent at other subjects. But the school have given no guidance about what are in these tests. I tried looking online for some practice tests, but there is so much information, it's difficult to know what is legitimate and what isn't?
Have any PH parents been through this recently, do you have any advice?
Thanks
Your area might be different but ours is Ultra-competitive. Our local GS used to have the 11+ in October of Year 6 and parents would be preparing at least 2 years in advance (online tuition, £40 per hour in-person tuition and so on). From memory I think our local school gets 1200+ applications for 180 places.
What I would suggest is signing up to 1 or 2 online 11+ sites and see how your child gets on. From memory we used Bond 11+ past papers but you might want to use a range of different providers.
The Bond papers are good. That's mostly what we have just used for our son.
You will definitely need some practise at the papers as the content is not usually stuff that they will come across in normal schooling, particularly the non-verbal reasoning. The practicalities of answering the questions is also something they need to be familiar with.
I have huge reservations about the concept of children being flogged to pass the tests and, has been stated above, a grammar school not necessarily being the right option for them. The opportunity is there so we gave it a go, past papers for a while before the exam, but no tutoring.
You will definitely need some practise at the papers as the content is not usually stuff that they will come across in normal schooling, particularly the non-verbal reasoning. The practicalities of answering the questions is also something they need to be familiar with.
I have huge reservations about the concept of children being flogged to pass the tests and, has been stated above, a grammar school not necessarily being the right option for them. The opportunity is there so we gave it a go, past papers for a while before the exam, but no tutoring.
r44flyer said:
I have huge reservations about the concept of children being flogged to pass the tests and, has been stated above, a grammar school not necessarily being the right option for them. The opportunity is there so we gave it a go, past papers for a while before the exam, but no tutoring.
I do agree with this. It just seems to be the done thing over here. If you're not getting tutors for your kids and bludgeoning them with daily practice tests you're almost seen as neglectful. I think I'll get some papers (thanks for the Bond recommendations) but won't push him too hard. My OH is a teacher at one of the top-rated Grammar Schools in the country. All-girls.
I also dated a former pupil of the same school years ago. That sounds terrible, but she was 25 at the time!
My experience is that yes, it gives you good experience and guaranteed teaching, but it does seem too much for kids. The number of tears, neuroses and amount of stress these kids have pushed on them (and put on themselves) does seem unreasonable. She was invigilating the 11+ on Saturday morning last week. The concept of 10yo kids sitting an exam like that is just alien to me. Apparently a lot of tears.
I could understand going if your local area had no good schools at all, but I'm generally not for. I say that as a successful engineer who went to a comprehensive (a middle of the road one) before Uni.
I also dated a former pupil of the same school years ago. That sounds terrible, but she was 25 at the time!
My experience is that yes, it gives you good experience and guaranteed teaching, but it does seem too much for kids. The number of tears, neuroses and amount of stress these kids have pushed on them (and put on themselves) does seem unreasonable. She was invigilating the 11+ on Saturday morning last week. The concept of 10yo kids sitting an exam like that is just alien to me. Apparently a lot of tears.
I could understand going if your local area had no good schools at all, but I'm generally not for. I say that as a successful engineer who went to a comprehensive (a middle of the road one) before Uni.
Timely, my wife started at the local (very highly rated) grammar school this September and helped with the entrance exams last Saturday.
You can't revise for it naturally, there's a lot of "if we wrote X how would you describe the opposite?" sort of questions.
One thing for parents, impress upon the rule of multiple-choice exams (which this articular school's was), if you don't know leave it until the end and then go back and guess them all! There's no deductions for wrong answers but you may as well guess as you've a one in four chance!
My wife thought that as long as you had a decent understanding of all subjects at that level but were well read with a good vocabulary you'd do well.
This school has about a 50:50 pass/fail rate from a good few hundred entrants.
You can't revise for it naturally, there's a lot of "if we wrote X how would you describe the opposite?" sort of questions.
One thing for parents, impress upon the rule of multiple-choice exams (which this articular school's was), if you don't know leave it until the end and then go back and guess them all! There's no deductions for wrong answers but you may as well guess as you've a one in four chance!
My wife thought that as long as you had a decent understanding of all subjects at that level but were well read with a good vocabulary you'd do well.
This school has about a 50:50 pass/fail rate from a good few hundred entrants.
Had the same concerns with my two (son and daughter - 4 years age difference) .. both made the grade for respective local Boys/Girls Grammar Schools for which I am mightily chuffed.
Did the open days where they insist there is no need for tutoring - all parents nodded and 95% of them went off and got tutors! We didn't for either - but you do start the guilt trip over whether you should... I think the competition was high, something like 600 kids sitting the exam for 160 places.
What I would say is that schools do not teach what is needed to pass these 11+/entrance exams... we did a bit of home schooling evenings/weekends (neither me or the other half are in any way highly educated)... and we bought the Bond tests from Amazon and worked through them.
It is amazing that some kids were presented with the actual test papers on the day and didn't know what to do as they had never seen one. Also, for some (most?) their longest tests taken to that point were a quick 15/20 min spelling/maths test.
Those practice papers helped enormously - as well as the format of them, the key thing we found was timing. My son took a first go and we left him in the Dining Room said you have an hour... went back in to say he had 10 minutes left and he continued scribbling away... 10 minutes later he had only done about three pages in total! (He did improve considerably over the next few months!)
Also, it cannot be stressed enough that reading should be actively encouraged as a lot rests on being able to interprete a given random text and making observations on situations or statements of fact... this is very hard to revise for!
A friend of my daughter had a tutor and very motivated parents who got her reading the classics Shakespeare/Dickens... even watching the film adaptations in preparation. The actual text given in the exam was entitled "Hairy Wood Ants" and was a factual report on the aforementioned critters... think they sunk a few hundred into books and films, but she did pass!
I can't say get a tutor or not.. however, your son sounds like he has a good working standard already you just need to familiarise him with the exam papers.
Next you'll be stressing over universities - it never stops!
Sorry for rambling on...
Did the open days where they insist there is no need for tutoring - all parents nodded and 95% of them went off and got tutors! We didn't for either - but you do start the guilt trip over whether you should... I think the competition was high, something like 600 kids sitting the exam for 160 places.
What I would say is that schools do not teach what is needed to pass these 11+/entrance exams... we did a bit of home schooling evenings/weekends (neither me or the other half are in any way highly educated)... and we bought the Bond tests from Amazon and worked through them.
It is amazing that some kids were presented with the actual test papers on the day and didn't know what to do as they had never seen one. Also, for some (most?) their longest tests taken to that point were a quick 15/20 min spelling/maths test.
Those practice papers helped enormously - as well as the format of them, the key thing we found was timing. My son took a first go and we left him in the Dining Room said you have an hour... went back in to say he had 10 minutes left and he continued scribbling away... 10 minutes later he had only done about three pages in total! (He did improve considerably over the next few months!)
Also, it cannot be stressed enough that reading should be actively encouraged as a lot rests on being able to interprete a given random text and making observations on situations or statements of fact... this is very hard to revise for!
A friend of my daughter had a tutor and very motivated parents who got her reading the classics Shakespeare/Dickens... even watching the film adaptations in preparation. The actual text given in the exam was entitled "Hairy Wood Ants" and was a factual report on the aforementioned critters... think they sunk a few hundred into books and films, but she did pass!
I can't say get a tutor or not.. however, your son sounds like he has a good working standard already you just need to familiarise him with the exam papers.
Next you'll be stressing over universities - it never stops!
Sorry for rambling on...
Moominho said:
So we live in Whetstone, in North London. It's not even necessarily a grammar school we are looking at, even the secondary schools with decent reputations rely on the 11 plus results, and sometimes also an entrance exam.
I’m confused by the suggestion that non-selective schools have entrance exams.They may use 11plus results (or other exams) to stream the kids who do arrive but otherwise I’m not sure how they are relying on such things.
I did the 11+ in 2000 for whatever it’s worth. The maths paper was no different to any other maths test. The verbal and non verbal reasoning tests were just logic based. We did a couple of practice papers for each to get a feel for the types of questions you get and that was it.
Not sure I get the talk about stressing children out with testing. Yes there are a lot of tests but the 11+ is optional. If you don’t want your kids to go through it then don’t. It isn’t like failing to get into uni - they’ll just go to a standard school instead, which might suit them better.
Not sure I get the talk about stressing children out with testing. Yes there are a lot of tests but the 11+ is optional. If you don’t want your kids to go through it then don’t. It isn’t like failing to get into uni - they’ll just go to a standard school instead, which might suit them better.
Edited by Brainpox on Saturday 24th September 09:54
markh1973 said:
Moominho said:
So we live in Whetstone, in North London. It's not even necessarily a grammar school we are looking at, even the secondary schools with decent reputations rely on the 11 plus results, and sometimes also an entrance exam.
I’m confused by the suggestion that non-selective schools have entrance exams.They may use 11plus results (or other exams) to stream the kids who do arrive but otherwise I’m not sure how they are relying on such things.
Round here competition for state grammar school is intense 2000 applicants for 200 places
Primary school curriculum does not address the test and when asked about this, the primary head very defensive almost as if it was ideologically unsound. Consequence is healthy prep school economy and tutoring.
My kids are through the school now. I was distinctly unimpressed witht the teachers who for the most part were coasting and the school achieved its results by putting very healthy plants in ordinary compost.
The environment was definitely better for gentle, sensitive, academically inclined children than the local comprehensive which is almost certainly a better led, more succesful school, would have been an intimidating zoo for my kids.
Locally Grammar = rugby Comp = football if that matters. My lad hadn't played rugby, many of the other lads had been playing for five years and were extremely competitive. He didn't get a look in.
The grammar was much more culturally diverse than the local comp due to the broader catchement and the academic ambitions of immigrant families.
Primary school curriculum does not address the test and when asked about this, the primary head very defensive almost as if it was ideologically unsound. Consequence is healthy prep school economy and tutoring.
My kids are through the school now. I was distinctly unimpressed witht the teachers who for the most part were coasting and the school achieved its results by putting very healthy plants in ordinary compost.
The environment was definitely better for gentle, sensitive, academically inclined children than the local comprehensive which is almost certainly a better led, more succesful school, would have been an intimidating zoo for my kids.
Locally Grammar = rugby Comp = football if that matters. My lad hadn't played rugby, many of the other lads had been playing for five years and were extremely competitive. He didn't get a look in.
The grammar was much more culturally diverse than the local comp due to the broader catchement and the academic ambitions of immigrant families.
My daughter is in the local girls grammar. The secondary schools are pretty good so there was no desperate need for her to get in, it was her choice. We spoke to some teachers and their advice was do not get tutoring. If they are tutored to within an inch of their lives to get in they will need to continue with it to keep on pace when they are there. We got the relevant past papers and revision guides for her and helped out when she was stuck with certain questions. She put the work in herself and did herself proud when she was accepted. There are different entrance exams so get the correct past papers. Also is it something he wants to do or are you insisting he goes in for it and there could be arguments and resentment as he is thinking why am I doing this when I don't want to do it in the first place.
Skyedriver said:
1964 - I took the 11 plus Exam and went to the Grammar School...What comes around goes around or whatever the saying is
1965 for me. Passed the 11-plus and graded 23 out of 1200 pupils in the Gateshead area. Heathfield Grammar school for about 18 months, then Chester-le-Street Grammar. It all went downhill from there…
Moominho said:
Hello all,
Things were very different in my day. We went to the local secondary school and that was it. No exams - I don't even think I had homework until the age of 11. We also only had 4 channels though, so I digress.
Our eldest has started year 5, and all the local parents are talking about Grammar schools, entrance exams and the 11 plus. Our boy is super smart at maths, like his mum, and pretty decent at other subjects. But the school have given no guidance about what are in these tests. I tried looking online for some practice tests, but there is so much information, it's difficult to know what is legitimate and what isn't?
Have any PH parents been through this recently, do you have any advice?
Thanks
My experience ( 10 years ago) , daughter sat the entrance exam for the local grammar school ( the school is in the top 20 of state grammar schools). There were in excess of 18 applicants for each place. The maths exam included subject matter that was included in her school syllabus, but had not been taught at the time of the entrance exam.. She passed, and went on to achieve great results in her GCSE's . However we paid for a private tutor for 18 months prior. The tutoring included taking mock exams using past entrance papers. The exam experience and working against the clock was something that she did not do at all at school. She enjoyed the tutoring and ended up working for the tutor, helping other pupils, I have absolutely no doubt she would not have passed the exam without the tutoring and also, that it gave her confidence at school and when she started at the Grammar. In hindsight I would not have done anything different , had she not passed the entrance exam it would have been a choice between the catch all state school or a private school. For her the Grammar school was the best outcome. Things were very different in my day. We went to the local secondary school and that was it. No exams - I don't even think I had homework until the age of 11. We also only had 4 channels though, so I digress.
Our eldest has started year 5, and all the local parents are talking about Grammar schools, entrance exams and the 11 plus. Our boy is super smart at maths, like his mum, and pretty decent at other subjects. But the school have given no guidance about what are in these tests. I tried looking online for some practice tests, but there is so much information, it's difficult to know what is legitimate and what isn't?
Have any PH parents been through this recently, do you have any advice?
Thanks
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