V8 Engine Power Outputs

[Jon39]

Vantage ................. 503 bhp
Vantage F1 ............ 527 bhp
DB11 ....................... 528 bhp
DBX ........................ 550 bhp
DBX 707 ................. 707 bhp

Mercedes-Benz M178 V8 3,982cc engine.

[Westlondondriver]

I wonder how long before they put the 707 engine in the Vantage and DB11. It’s got to make sense. You would imaging a Vantage with F1 styling, a 707 engine and gearbox with the slightly newer infotainment from the DBX would do well and not cost them too much to develop. The full interior upgrade would be even better but would presumably cost more to port the 707 interior into the smaller Vantage.

[Caddyshack]

I don’t get it, there is a heading and then some power outputs listed? Is there a question or a statetent being made?

[nathwraith1]

Westlondondriver said:

I wonder how long before they put the 707 engine in the Vantage and DB11. It’s got to make sense. You would imaging a Vantage with F1 styling, a 707 engine and gearbox with the slightly newer infotainment from the DBX would do well and not cost them too much to develop. The full interior upgrade would be even better but would presumably cost more to port the 707 interior into the smaller Vantage.

I’ve thought of this ever since the 707 details were revealed.

That would make an incredible “Vantage S”.

[Jon39]

Caddyshack said:

I don’t get it, there is a heading and then some power outputs listed? Is there a question or a statetent being made?

Yes, it does look odd, but the AM forum members are good at discussing. My initial post was of greater length, but each time I tried to submit, there was an error message. After clipping some text, the submit then worked normally.

Some of the power figures are so close (eg. F1 and DB11 with just 1 bhp difference), I wonder why there are two engines.
Mistakenly install an F1 engine in a DB11 and no one would notice the difference.

Interesting that the same basic engine can produce very different amounts of power. Years ago, this wide variation was not available.

I think Mercedes now have a version in their AMG GT 4 door Coupe, that is even more powerful than the 707.

[Caddyshack]

Jon39 said:

Caddyshack said:

I don’t get it, there is a heading and then some power outputs listed? Is there a question or a statetent being made?

Yes, it does look odd, but the AM forum members are good at discussing. My initial post was of greater length, but each time I tried to submit, there was an error message. After clipping some text, the submit then worked normally.

Some of the power figures are so close (eg. F1 and DB11 with just 1 bhp difference), I wonder why there are two engines.
Mistakenly install an F1 engine in a DB11 and no one would notice the difference.

Interesting that the same basic engine can produce very different amounts of power. Years ago, this wide variation was not available.

I think Mercedes now have a version in their AMG GT 4 door Coupe, that is even more powerful than the 707.

Thanks for explaining.

I wonder if the 1hp difference doesn’t tell the whole story? It would be interesting to compare the power and torque graphs and gear ratios., I wonder if one engine setup is more for the design of the car use?

[AdamV12V]

Considering they had to detune the V12VTT from the DBS as the only gearbox that would fit couldnt handle the power, I cant see that the idea of the 707 V8VS output are viable either.

I guess unless a new / upgraded gearbox can be sourced but them the V12VTT owners will be even more miffed that it couldnt have been sourced for their car and the full output of the V12 used!

Edit - actually a revised gearbox with the full power of the DBS V12 would make for a basis of the new V12VSTT. I take it back, that fits well with expected strategy!!

Edited by AdamV12V on Saturday 24th September 11:55

[Agent57]

It was the same with the V12 engine.

I get the impression the marketing people just pluck a power figure out of the air and ask the engineers (programmers?) to make it so.

If they get much more power the V8 will overshadow the V12 engine as the 707 did with the new V12 Vantage.

Porsche has often done the same trick.

[Longy00000]

Well we might all be wrong as the writing is on the wall.....

https://www.carwow.co.uk/mercedes/amg-c63/news/486...

2.0 4 cylinders are the way......apparantly

[Jon39]

Longy00000 said:

2.0 4 cylinders are the way......apparantly

475 bhp from 1,991cc - remarkable.

Years ago people would say, "That engine won't last long".
In those days, more than 100bhp per 1,000cc was quite special, but presumably Mercedes-Benz are confident of longevity.

[Simpo Two]

Jon39 said:

Longy00000 said:

2.0 4 cylinders are the way......apparantly

475 bhp from 1,991cc - remarkable.

But think how much they could get from 8...

[Longy00000]

I know it's the future but I just find it a little sad.
I often bought 6 cylinder engines in years gone by because they were smoother and generally a touch more refined than 4 pots but now even they are deemed too much and we only need 4 cylinders going forward.
For now I'm.keeping my V12 and they can prise the keys from my dead corpse no matter how much power the hybrids of the future bring.
5 years from now will you be queuing up for a 4 cylinder hybrid Vantage?

[Simpo Two]

Longy00000 said:

5 years from now will you be queuing up for a 4 cylinder hybrid Vantage?

Plus:
It has the badge.

Minus:
It is at least two cylinders short, and probably four.
It looks like a catfish.

So no. DB9 is all I need. Thanks to Putin I think a DB11 will be beyond my reach. DB9 is not a bad summit in the grand scheme of things, it beats most things on the road

[Longy00000]

Yup a v12 DB9 is not a bad place to be when faced with our motoring future .

[NMNeil]

Longy00000 said:

Well we might all be wrong as the writing is on the wall.....

https://www.carwow.co.uk/mercedes/amg-c63/news/486...

2.0 4 cylinders are the way......apparantly

Notice they only quote the 0-60 times and not the top speed?

[volvodrummer]

Longy00000 said:

Well we might all be wrong as the writing is on the wall.....

https://www.carwow.co.uk/mercedes/amg-c63/news/486...

2.0 4 cylinders are the way......apparantly

Probably an option before full EV, but I still think we're gonna see the AMG M256 that the Chinese market DBX is using find it's way into the revised Vantage, and maybe the DB11.

[EVR]

Agent57 said:

It was the same with the V12 engine.

I get the impression the marketing people just pluck a power figure out of the air and ask the engineers (programmers?) to make it so.

If they get much more power the V8 will overshadow the V12 engine as the 707 did with the new V12 Vantage.

Porsche has often done the same trick.

I think so too. I am still convinced that the most powerful DBX has 707 bhp since the numbers 0 & 7 are so crucial for AM marketing.

Edited by EVR on Sunday 25th September 09:42

[8Tech]

Jon39 said:

Longy00000 said:

2.0 4 cylinders are the way......apparantly

475 bhp from 1,991cc - remarkable.

Years ago people would say, "That engine won't last long".
In those days, more than 100bhp per 1,000cc was quite special, but presumably Mercedes-Benz are confident of longevity.

And even now I say....."That engine won't last long".
The engines only need to last the warranty periods and with Astons generally doing low annual mileages, that will be just fine.
A 2.0 4 pot Sierra Cosworth could easily achieve 500bhp in 1986 with rebuild expectation of around 20,000 miles, so thats probably 5 years plus in an Aston.
If you want to see the result of big boost small engines, check out the reliability of the mass produced Ford Ecoboost engines!

[Dewi 2]

8Tech said:

And even now I say....."That engine won't last long".
The engines only need to last the warranty periods and with Astons generally doing low annual mileages, that will be just fine.
A 2.0 4 pot Sierra Cosworth could easily achieve 500bhp in 1986 with rebuild expectation of around 20,000 miles, so thats probably 5 years plus in an Aston.
If you want to see the result of big boost small engines, check out the reliability of the mass produced Ford Ecoboost engines!

With such an amazing tool kit Gerry (Profile), your technical opinion would be appreciated.

Having a Vantage I don't need an AMG, but for a daily driver last of the era IC Mercedes, would you choose the in line 6 option in view of your comments above? Thanks.

[Ninja59]

Jon39 said:

Vantage ................. 503 bhp
Vantage F1 ............ 527 bhp
DB11 ....................... 528 bhp
DBX ........................ 550 bhp
DBX 707 ................. 707 bhp

Mercedes-Benz M178 V8 3,982cc engine.

Incorrect engine designation, AM's is still an M177, not M178 which is the dry sumped version, none of the current V8's are dry sumped in an AM.

The AM version does get an AM specific sump though unlike the mercedes version, the mapping is quite different as well with torque coming in earlier.

Additionally regarding the 707 engine in the Vantage or DB11, the limiting point is the gearbox, or well the gearbox and the available space. The V12 Vantage got detuned because whilst a larger gearbox is possible even in the ZF line up, there simply is not the space to accommodate it.

The 707 engine issue is that it uses the Mercedes 9 speed, not the ZF 8HP unit. The question really is does the 9 spd fit the chassis of the vantage and DB11, I suspect not. Also for me, AM then looses one of the main and unique* reasons I got my Vantage in the 8HP, whilst the 707 was good with AM software the 8HP's use everywhere is for a reason, with the right software they are brilliant.

• I dont believe there is another application this V8 mated to a ZF box

Edited by Ninja59 on Sunday 25th September 17:40