£12k fun car - Difficult compromises

[C70R]

I'm aiming to pick up a third car for fun later this year, and I'm having a hard time narrowing down a shortlist before I go and drive some. Given that it's going to be difficult to push a car hard on a test drive, I would love to hear a few owners' perspectives. The hard part is being driven by the need for a number of compromises, so there's no obvious perfect option as far as I can see.

I want a car that I can:

1. Enjoy on country lanes. The car will be kept in the countryside, so it's going to deal with bumpy, narrow roads and plenty of blind bends (torque makes this more fun from experience).
2. Take on roadtrips. I'm planning at least one decent roadtrip a year (Scotland, Alps etc.), so need something that isn't going to be miserable on the motorway, and can be fun when I get to the other end.
3. Get plenty out of on 2-3 trackdays a year. I'm not Ayrton Senna, and I don't push my cars particularly hard on trackdays. I've had a dedicated track car that I 'built', and it ended up being a misery to drive on fun roads (too noisy, too stiff, too uncompromising). I don't want to go down that route again.

Cars I've considered:

• 370z. This is the one I can't get out of my head, but the words of Chris Harris (about the chassis not being great on bumpy roads) are holding me back.
• TT-S. Probably the best all-rounder (and love the idea of adjustable suspension), but will it be any fun on track?
• 135i coupe. The thought of 360lbft of torque from a simple remap is beguiling, but I worry it's going to be a bit too ... BMW.
• Z4 35i. As above, but with foldy roof.
• Z4 3.0i (E85). The wildcard that I benchmark the incremental value of everything against. £5k gets you into a decent example (albeit a bit long in the tooth) of this fabulous all-rounder. I never took my previous auto on track, but the ePAS and lack of LSD made it feel like a 6/10ths car (at best).
• Megane 265 Cup. I don't think I want a FWD hatch and I don't like French cars, but it's hard to overlook how well these go on trackdays with a few tweaks. Assume they are B-road demons too.

Smaller cars are out, because I'm 6ft3 and need to fit comfortably with a helmet (so no MX5s). Autos are probably out, because I have two already and variety is the spice of life. It needs to be ULEZ for driving into London, which rules out a lot of older stuff.

Any thoughts on the list above? Anything I'm missing?

[Silvanus]

I'm going to dive in and defend the TT before the love hate camps start. As you've mentioned its a good all-rounder and perfect for the roads and trips you want it for. With regards to track days, of course it will be fun, all cars are fun on the track, the fun is getting the maximum put of them and the TT is decent, whatever anyone says.

A few others that spring to mind that are a bit different to the cars you've suggested and often forgotten. All ULEZ and awd.

Subaru Impreza 2.5 WRX STi. Challenging looks but is a practical hatchback and loads of tuning potential if you're that way inclined.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2022012919...

Nissan Juke Nismo RS 4WD, another love hate looking car, but owners love them, auto though.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2022051657...

Mini Paceman John Cooper Works All4, an under loved car that ticks a lot of boxes second hand.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2022060966...

Alfa Romeo Brera 3.2 V6 Q4 SV, not the sharpest tool in the box but still a breath car. Again it can be tinkered with and it's an Alfa

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2022081788...

[C70R]

Silvanus said:

I'm going to dive in and defend the TT before the love hate camps start. As you've mentioned its a good all-rounder and perfect for the roads and trips you want it for. With regards to track days, of course it will be fun, all cars are fun on the track, the fun is getting the maximum put of them and the TT is decent, whatever anyone says.

A few others that spring to mind that are a bit different to the cars you've suggested and often forgotten. All ULEZ and awd.

Subaru Impreza 2.5 WRX STi. Challenging looks but is a practical hatchback and loads of tuning potential if you're that way inclined.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2022012919...

Nissan Juke Nismo RS 4WD, another love hate looking car, but owners love them, auto though.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2022051657...

Mini Paceman John Cooper Works All4, an under loved car that ticks a lot of boxes second hand.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2022060966...

Alfa Romeo Brera 3.2 V6 Q4 SV, not the sharpest tool in the box but still a breath car. Again it can be tinkered with and it's an Alfa

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2022081788...

The Impreza is the only one that really appeals in there, and it sort of falls awkwardly into the 'I don't want a hatchback, but I bet it's amazing on country lanes' category. I feel like a TT-S might do it better, and give me something to look over my shoulder at as I walk away...

[Truckosaurus]

Silvanus said:

....Nissan Juke Nismo RS 4WD, another love hate looking car, but owners love them, auto though...

Or go for the FWD version for a manual box and LSD (also optional Recaros), needs lowering and non-SUV wheels/tyres to get it more like its Clio sister.

[Belle427]

I still think the 370 is overlooked and a good shout.
May not be the best choice for lots of track work but would seem perfect for your needs.
Or a cheaper 350 with some change for some trick suspension.

[Xcore]

Get a decent Tvr chimaera for that

[C70R]

Xcore said:

Get a decent Tvr chimaera for that

And get charged 12 quid every time I drive it into London. Sadly ruled out for that reason.

That, and the fact that I just don't fit. At all.

[C70R]

Truckosaurus said:

Or go for the FWD version for a manual box and LSD (also optional Recaros), needs lowering and non-SUV wheels/tyres to get it more like its Clio sister.

I'm not buying a Nissan Juke as my fun car.

[C70R]

Belle427 said:

I still think the 370 is overlooked and a good shout.
May not be the best choice for lots of track work but would seem perfect for your needs.
Or a cheaper 350 with some change for some trick suspension.

The 350 is a good call, and it's made my shortlist a few times. I just feel like if I was going to get one, I'd want the latest/best I could. By that point you're getting into 370 territory, and by all contemporary reviews accounts it's a much better car.

The 370 is definitely the favourite at the moment. Seems relatively unloved, and a bit of a bargain. I just worry it might feel unwieldy on narrow country lanes...

[Om]

C70R said:

I'm aiming to pick up a third car for fun later this year, and I'm having a hard time narrowing down a shortlist before I go and drive some. Given that it's going to be difficult to push a car hard on a test drive, I would love to hear a few owners' perspectives. The hard part is being driven by the need for a number of compromises, so there's no obvious perfect option as far as I can see.

I want a car that I can:

1. Enjoy on country lanes. The car will be kept in the countryside, so it's going to deal with bumpy, narrow roads and plenty of blind bends (torque makes this more fun from experience).
2. Take on roadtrips. I'm planning at least one decent roadtrip a year (Scotland, Alps etc.), so need something that isn't going to be miserable on the motorway, and can be fun when I get to the other end.
3. Get plenty out of on 2-3 trackdays a year. I'm not Ayrton Senna, and I don't push my cars particularly hard on trackdays. I've had a dedicated track car that I 'built', and it ended up being a misery to drive on fun roads (too noisy, too stiff, too uncompromising). I don't want to go down that route again.

Cars I've considered:

• 370z. This is the one I can't get out of my head, but the words of Chris Harris (about the chassis not being great on bumpy roads) are holding me back.
• TT-S. Probably the best all-rounder (and love the idea of adjustable suspension), but will it be any fun on track?
• 135i coupe. The thought of 360lbft of torque from a simple remap is beguiling, but I worry it's going to be a bit too ... BMW.
• Z4 35i. As above, but with foldy roof.
• Z4 3.0i (E85). The wildcard that I benchmark the incremental value of everything against. £5k gets you into a decent example (albeit a bit long in the tooth) of this fabulous all-rounder. I never took my previous auto on track, but the ePAS and lack of LSD made it feel like a 6/10ths car (at best).
• Megane 265 Cup. I don't think I want a FWD hatch and I don't like French cars, but it's hard to overlook how well these go on trackdays with a few tweaks. Assume they are B-road demons too.

Smaller cars are out, because I'm 6ft3 and need to fit comfortably with a helmet (so no MX5s). Autos are probably out, because I have two already and variety is the spice of life. It needs to be ULEZ for driving into London, which rules out a lot of older stuff.

Any thoughts on the list above? Anything I'm missing?

My experience of the 370z is quite different to Chris Harris. The 370z suspension - certainly post 2012 facelift and the earlier GT Edition (that he didn't drive) is that the suspension - damping in particular is excellent on typical UK twisty bumpy roads, and was setup specifically for these kinds of roads. It is far better than many modern performance cars, much more supple and absorbent considering the 245/40, 275/35 tyres.

The obvious downside is what you lose in ultimate handling from the choice of suspension setup which I suspect is at the root of Chris Harris' issues. It is a great 8/10ths car, however you would only tend to drive at 8/10ths max on public roads. We live in the countryside with more than sufficient bends and narrow lanes and I find it a great car to hustle along, certainly more than capable than keeping up with the faster hot hatches. The big n/a engine is plenty torquey and doesn't get caught out that I have found. Steering is good (very good by modern standards) - quick, responsive with decent feedback. Also forward and side visibility is good even if less so to the rear making it easy to place on the road.

I haven't done so but they are supposedly quite capable on track (with a decent oil cooler fitted), but at heart it is a GT car (Which it is great at) not an MX5.

We recently drove from Anglesey to Surrey for a long weekend (with the dog and luggage), went to the Shere Hill Climb, did 3 (fun) runs up the hill and drove back again. All with reasonable comfort. Surprisingly (mine is the 7sp semi-auto) the car averaged just under 34mpg brim to brim on the run back home. I was very impressed and pleased with how well the car took everything in its stride.

Apart from that it is cheap to service, in my 2.5 years has been utterly reliable and feels bullet proof. The main expense is the road tax at £615 a year up to 2017. Post 17 cars are £162.75 so in line with most others.

Reading the above I am obviously a fan(!) and if I were to be in the market again I would probably choose another 370z for its all round abilities (but possibly the Nismo just to be different).

Edited by Om on Wednesday 28th September 11:23

[C70R]

That's really helpful context, thank you. I'm assuming your dog isn't a Great Dane...

Have you driven any of the others on my shortlist?

[coldel]

The 370z is very much an evolution of the 350z rather than something very different. The engine shares something like 60% of the old HR from the 350z and the chassis is not a big step on. You could get a 350z and really make it your own to perfectly suit what you need, and have change.

I bought a Z4 3.0si recently in coupe form and I really like it, it 'feels' a better car to drive than my old 350z and the engine is much better. The 350z though has a myriad of aftermarket to make it a better car. I would though say if you are a track guy and fast road guy then the power steering in the Z4 will most likely not be what you need which is a shame because throwing an LSD in one would give you a cracking car for the money. From what I hear though the TTS is equally numb to drive.

A slightly leftfield option, but apparently the RX8s have a sublime chassis and drive if you want to spend what you save on engine management every few years.

Similarly you could go GT86, down on power but up on handling and fun.

I did a track day in my old VX220 with mates (you could squeeze in an NA for your budget but wouldnt recommend them for road trips!) and there were quite a few 135i's out on track and they are very capable cars. But they did look very BMW and didnt stand out if you want that.

Edited by coldel on Wednesday 28th September 11:25

Edited by coldel on Wednesday 28th September 11:26

[C70R]

The RX8 really appeals as an oddball, but I'm just not sure I could own something where I'm waiting for the engine to die. It would take the shine off 2,000-mile roadtrips a smidge.

The GT86 is an exceptional car to drive, but I don't think I could live with the lack of oomph or the ordinary engine noise. I was actually on the waiting list for the GR86 earlier this year when our dream second home popped up - given the shambles that has followed, I'm sort of relieved I pulled out in the end.

I'm 6ft3 and built like an out-of-shape rugby player. I don't have a hope in hell of getting into a VX220 with a helmet on.

The E86 is a stunning car, and values have really softened in recent times. I think I'd just struggle to spend £9k on something that isn't really faster than the £5k E85 3.0i and has the same numb steering and lack of LSD. By the time you've chucked money at the chassis, you're into the sort of money that gets a 370z.

[coldel]

C70R said:

The RX8 really appeals as an oddball, but I'm just not sure I could own something where I'm waiting for the engine to die. It would take the shine off 2,000-mile roadtrips a smidge.

The GT86 is an exceptional car to drive, but I don't think I could live with the lack of oomph or the ordinary engine noise. I was actually on the waiting list for the GR86 earlier this year when our dream second home popped up - given the shambles that has followed, I'm sort of relieved I pulled out in the end.

I'm 6ft3 and built like an out-of-shape rugby player. I don't have a hope in hell of getting into a VX220 with a helmet on.

The E86 is a stunning car, and values have really softened in recent times. I think I'd just struggle to spend £9k on something that isn't really faster than the £5k E85 3.0i and has the same numb steering and lack of LSD. By the time you've chucked money at the chassis, you're into the sort of money that gets a 370z.

Totally agree I wouldnt go for an E86 either given your needs.

The VX220 roof comes off but yes am joking definitely not a road trip car.

Another left field option, higher miler RCZ R - very rare, looks great, very clever front diff.
Similarly the VW Scirocco R but easier to get your hands on.
Just two more exotic options to the usual hatchback crowd?

[cerb4.5lee]

C70R said:

Cars I've considered:

• 370z. This is the one I can't get out of my head, but the words of Chris Harris (about the chassis not being great on bumpy roads) are holding me back.

• TT-S. Probably the best all-rounder (and love the idea of adjustable suspension), but will it be any fun on track?

I have a 370Z(roadster) and it is absolutely fine to throw down a nice road ride and suspension wise for me(it is miles better than the F82 M4 I have in comparison too). It is definitely more GT than sports car though I reckon, but I've been properly happy with it for 3.5 years now.

I'd personally avoid the TTS, and I didn't rate it much at all as a drivers car(it was the worst performance car I've had in that regard). A lovely car to sit in and live with though.

[cerb4.5lee]

I'll just add that I also had a Z4M Roadster, and that was a bit of a pig to throw down a nice country road because the suspension didn't have any give in it. You did get hydraulic steering and a LSD in it though...plus massively oversensitive traction control too!

In fairness I also always switch the traction control off in the 370 as well though.

[C70R]

coldel said:

C70R said:

The RX8 really appeals as an oddball, but I'm just not sure I could own something where I'm waiting for the engine to die. It would take the shine off 2,000-mile roadtrips a smidge.

The GT86 is an exceptional car to drive, but I don't think I could live with the lack of oomph or the ordinary engine noise. I was actually on the waiting list for the GR86 earlier this year when our dream second home popped up - given the shambles that has followed, I'm sort of relieved I pulled out in the end.

I'm 6ft3 and built like an out-of-shape rugby player. I don't have a hope in hell of getting into a VX220 with a helmet on.

The E86 is a stunning car, and values have really softened in recent times. I think I'd just struggle to spend £9k on something that isn't really faster than the £5k E85 3.0i and has the same numb steering and lack of LSD. By the time you've chucked money at the chassis, you're into the sort of money that gets a 370z.

Totally agree I wouldnt go for an E86 either given your needs.

The VX220 roof comes off but yes am joking definitely not a road trip car.

Another left field option, higher miler RCZ R - very rare, looks great, very clever front diff.
Similarly the VW Scirocco R but easier to get your hands on.
Just two more exotic options to the usual hatchback crowd?

Good shouts, but not quite right for me. I love the styling of the RCZ, but I don't think I'll ever really lust after a French car - rightly or wrongly, they just don't excite me. I've actually driven a Scirocco, and was really disappointed - it just felt really numb.

[Om]

C70R said:

That's really helpful context, thank you. I'm assuming your dog isn't a Great Dane...

Have you driven any of the others on my shortlist?

He isn't a great dane, but is about the size of a collie (which our other dog is) and we have had both of them in the back for shorter - hour long or so journeys. There is quite a bit of space albeit not very deep.

When I was searching I looked at most of the others on your list plus the Cayman, GT86 and VX220. I discounted anything convertible only due to the dog requirement. Of the rest:
- TTS - didn't have enough cylinders (I wanted 6) and whilst being a very competent car was just a bit common and not too different from a hot hatch just in a pretty suit (personal opinion obv).
- Brera - I came from an Alfa GT so the Brera would have been a nice next step but they feel (and are) heavy/leaden on the road and the engine is no Busso...
- 135 coupe was, like the TTS, an excellent all round car but just felt rather bmw. It was the top of a very common range rather than a special, different car.
- Z4 - I looked at the Coupe rather than the convertible. This was the closest in ethos to the 370z but for me were too old, often higher mileage and difficult to find.
- Cayman - much like the Z4. Great car but for my money I was looking at something older and higher mileage and they are somewhat less dog friendly... Also at the price and age I was looking at they were slap bang (no pun intended) at the age where Porsche's unreliability reputation was at its height.
- VX220/Elise. Great cars but too far toward a focused sports car with little luggage space and not built for long journeys. An Evora on the other hand... (were out of budget).
- GT86 - perfect on many levels. Even the 4cyl engine was offset by being unusual/a boxer and the sound (and the flatspot) could be resolved with a exhaust/manifold change and a remap. However the cost of the mods to get it there put it in the same price bracket as the 370z, which I felt was in a different league - and a league I preferred.

All the above are just my opinion though!

[C70R]

The Evora is the perfect car for my brief, but just out of budget at the moment.

[cerb4.5lee]

C70R said:

The 370 is definitely the favourite at the moment. Seems relatively unloved, and a bit of a bargain. I just worry it might feel unwieldy on narrow country lanes...

The long(ish) bonnet has caught me out a few times going around tight bends to be fair, so it is definitely something that you have to think about. Not helped because I had a MINI for a while and I was used to how small and nimble that was in comparison.