When will a 1yo 992 Carrera be less than new list price?
Discussion
In December 2021, I enquired about ordering a new 992 Carrera... 2 years wait they said, would you like to by a used one?
1 year old cars were ~ £10K to £20K over new list price, so I said "no thanks I will wait for normal times to return"
Ben watching the market ever since and see the difference shrink and expect a sensible relationship to re-establish itself again.
New car production is improving, demand is reducing, the speculation motivation is vanishing, so most things are going in the right direction
The question is when is the 1yo used car 10% lower than RRP for a new one?
911hope said:
In December 2021, I enquired about ordering a new 992 Carrera... 2 years wait they said, would you like to by a used one?
1 year old cars were ~ £10K to £20K over new list price, so I said "no thanks I will wait for normal times to return"
Ben watching the market ever since and see the difference shrink and expect a sensible relationship to re-establish itself again.
New car production is improving, demand is reducing, the speculation motivation is vanishing, so most things are going in the right direction
The question is when is the 1yo used car 10% lower than RRP for a new one?
I’m sure it will be different depending on marque of car.1 year old cars were ~ £10K to £20K over new list price, so I said "no thanks I will wait for normal times to return"
Ben watching the market ever since and see the difference shrink and expect a sensible relationship to re-establish itself again.
New car production is improving, demand is reducing, the speculation motivation is vanishing, so most things are going in the right direction
The question is when is the 1yo used car 10% lower than RRP for a new one?
I think you have answered your own question on the 992…. most likely no time soon
Why didn’t you place an order in December 21 ?
You haven’t been able to get one because Sunak thought this was a good idea X 100,000’s and the useless cont recently wanted a promotion.
“Investigators found Clipici, aged 35, was unable to account for more than £530,000 paid into the business bank account, including the £40,000 Bounce Back loan paid in May 2020.
Businesses were only eligible for support through the Bounce Back Loan Scheme if the money was to be used to benefit the business.
Over the next four months Clipici withdrew £30,000, which he claimed was for payments to subcontractors and business expenses, but was unable to prove this.
Clipici was also unable to prove that the Bounce Back loan was validly obtained or used to support his business during the pandemic.”
“Investigators found Clipici, aged 35, was unable to account for more than £530,000 paid into the business bank account, including the £40,000 Bounce Back loan paid in May 2020.
Businesses were only eligible for support through the Bounce Back Loan Scheme if the money was to be used to benefit the business.
Over the next four months Clipici withdrew £30,000, which he claimed was for payments to subcontractors and business expenses, but was unable to prove this.
Clipici was also unable to prove that the Bounce Back loan was validly obtained or used to support his business during the pandemic.”
tighnamara said:
I’m sure it will be different depending on marque of car.
I think you have answered your own question on the 992…. most likely no time soon
Why didn’t you place an order in December 21 ?
Honestly, it didn't seem like a £95k (list + options) car and I'm guessing that a 1 yo wil be cheaper by the end of 2023.I think you have answered your own question on the 992…. most likely no time soon
Why didn’t you place an order in December 21 ?
The used premium is a sign of instability in the market, which must correct at some time.
Also beginning to think a Cayman GTS might be a better choice.
nickfrog said:
911hope said:
Also beginning to think a Cayman GTS might be a better choice.
Not a bad shout. What's the like for like price delta compared to the 911.More crucially when do you expect delivery?
Just about at the point where a 1yo is close to the RRP of a new one. A few months ago, a £10K premium would have been asked to all such cars.
There are still a few nutty dealers asking for >£85K
Will probably wait until they fall further. Snap one up in late '23.
Availability is dominated by manual models. Don't know if this is the proportion sold, or if owners tire of driving them.
911hope said:
About 25K cheaper than a 911 Carrera. (£68k RRP)
Just about at the point where a 1yo is close to the RRP of a new one. A few months ago, a £10K premium would have been asked to all such cars.
There are still a few nutty dealers asking for >£85K
Will probably wait until they fall further. Snap one up in late '23.
Availability is dominated by manual models. Don't know if this is the proportion sold, or if owners tire of driving them.
Bargain. I would say get it bought now rather than spend yet another year without it, particularly if values remain strong. You may have to change your user name though! Just about at the point where a 1yo is close to the RRP of a new one. A few months ago, a £10K premium would have been asked to all such cars.
There are still a few nutty dealers asking for >£85K
Will probably wait until they fall further. Snap one up in late '23.
Availability is dominated by manual models. Don't know if this is the proportion sold, or if owners tire of driving them.
911hope said:
In December 2021, I enquired about ordering a new 992 Carrera... 2 years wait they said, would you like to by a used one?
1 year old cars were ~ £10K to £20K over new list price, so I said "no thanks I will wait for normal times to return"
Ben watching the market ever since and see the difference shrink and expect a sensible relationship to re-establish itself again.
New car production is improving, demand is reducing, the speculation motivation is vanishing, so most things are going in the right direction
The question is when is the 1yo used car 10% lower than RRP for a new one?
Are these cars 10-20k over what the original owner paid, or 10-20k over the price with no options boxes ticked?1 year old cars were ~ £10K to £20K over new list price, so I said "no thanks I will wait for normal times to return"
Ben watching the market ever since and see the difference shrink and expect a sensible relationship to re-establish itself again.
New car production is improving, demand is reducing, the speculation motivation is vanishing, so most things are going in the right direction
The question is when is the 1yo used car 10% lower than RRP for a new one?
fflump said:
Are these cars 10-20k over what the original owner paid, or 10-20k over the price with no options boxes ticked?
Relative to price paid. £110k was common. Now the cheapest with 25k on clock is about equivalent to new equivalent.
Of course the value of options reduce when a car becomes used. They were 90% margin on the new car, so "value hugely inflated".
The 718 GTS 4.0 is bonkers too, though. There are people waiting 18 months for one and if you put in an order now you'll be told you may never even get one. That pushes you down the used route and used PDK models on AT are £80k. That's about list price including options.
If you're sitting around waiting for Porsche values to soften you'll be waiting a while. It's staggering how well these things hold their money.
The time is now and life is short. If you've £80k knocking about, what about the 991.1 GTS? Or, if the cost is grating on you, have you considered a top of the market example 981 GTS instead for £55k?
Edit: Actually you can get the 991.2 GTS for 80 odd grand too.
If you're sitting around waiting for Porsche values to soften you'll be waiting a while. It's staggering how well these things hold their money.
The time is now and life is short. If you've £80k knocking about, what about the 991.1 GTS? Or, if the cost is grating on you, have you considered a top of the market example 981 GTS instead for £55k?
Edit: Actually you can get the 991.2 GTS for 80 odd grand too.
Edited by rawenghey on Monday 3rd October 15:59
rawenghey said:
The 718 GTS 4.0 is bonkers too, though. There are people waiting 18 months for one and if you put in an order now you'll be told you may never even get one. That pushes you down the used route and used PDK models on AT are £80k. That's about list price including options.
If you're sitting around waiting for Porsche values to soften you'll be waiting a while. It's staggering how well these things hold their money.
Yep and with just a new basic Carrera S starting at £103k and a new basic GTS starting at £114k before you price in the much needed options and with further imminent inevitable price rises to come together with lengthening lead times due to severe supply issues continuing across the board it really is no surprise that the premiums ££ continue now on even the basic 911s despite the oncoming economic headwinds and seasonal changes.If you're sitting around waiting for Porsche values to soften you'll be waiting a while. It's staggering how well these things hold their money.
718 specific model production is also ceasing imminently so it is quite clear the effect on used values.
av185 said:
rawenghey said:
The 718 GTS 4.0 is bonkers too, though. There are people waiting 18 months for one and if you put in an order now you'll be told you may never even get one. That pushes you down the used route and used PDK models on AT are £80k. That's about list price including options.
If you're sitting around waiting for Porsche values to soften you'll be waiting a while. It's staggering how well these things hold their money.
Yep and with just a new basic Carrera S starting at £103k and a new basic GTS starting at £114k before you price in the much needed options and with further imminent inevitable price rises to come together with lengthening lead times due to severe supply issues continuing across the board it really is no surprise that the premiums ££ continue now on even the basic 911s despite the oncoming economic headwinds and seasonal changes.If you're sitting around waiting for Porsche values to soften you'll be waiting a while. It's staggering how well these things hold their money.
718 specific model production is also ceasing imminently so it is quite clear the effect on used values.
Plus, with Porsche confirming the next Caysters will be EV, one has to recognise that the NA engine 718s are realistically the end of the line for an NA MR Porsche with a brilliant manual or PDK box. This is it. The only way these are ever going to be cheap is if the overlords tax them at several orders of magnitude above what they are now, in which case none of us would be able to afford them anyway.
911s and Caysters are holding money all across the range. Even the supposedly blasphemous 718 F4Ts never tanked like people said they would. As av185 said, the 992 GTS is £114k with a 24 month wait. How much is 24 months worth to you? If it's untenable then you'll need to stump up about £140k for a used one.
2 step process my friend:
1) Put in an order for whatever car you fancy. Now.
2) Go and test drive some cars you love. And buy one of them. Now.
Until the wheels come off the EV utopian future and/or the world finds some miracle to combat either the climate situation or the insatiable, frothing at the mouth hunger the West has to reduce consumption, this may be our Concorde moment. Nobody knows what next year will look like, let alone 10 years' time... but there is a strong possibility these cars will be long out if production by then. If they are, how much do you think they'll be worth then? Will you be one of the ultra rich few who can afford one?
911hope said:
In December 2021, I enquired about ordering a new 992 Carrera... 2 years wait they said, would you like to by a used one?
1 year old cars were ~ £10K to £20K over new list price, so I said "no thanks I will wait for normal times to return"
Ben watching the market ever since and see the difference shrink and expect a sensible relationship to re-establish itself again.
New car production is improving, demand is reducing, the speculation motivation is vanishing, so most things are going in the right direction
The question is when is the 1yo used car 10% lower than RRP for a new one?
I suspect trade price for a new 992 is list or just under IMHO1 year old cars were ~ £10K to £20K over new list price, so I said "no thanks I will wait for normal times to return"
Ben watching the market ever since and see the difference shrink and expect a sensible relationship to re-establish itself again.
New car production is improving, demand is reducing, the speculation motivation is vanishing, so most things are going in the right direction
The question is when is the 1yo used car 10% lower than RRP for a new one?
There is a 22 992 cab on collecting cars that should be reasonable guide
Thing is with 992s is that the supply is v restricted and likely to remain that way with regular price rises so I cannot see them falling to much below list (especially for non trade) unless economy seriously contracts
Kickstart said:
I suspect trade price for a new 992 is list or just under IMHO
There is a 22 992 cab on collecting cars that should be reasonable guide
Thing is with 992s is that the supply is v restricted and likely to remain that way with regular price rises so I cannot see them falling to much below list (especially for non trade) unless economy seriously contracts
I'm sure you are right about trade price, but I suspect they are seeking at least 10% Gross Margin on such cars. so £10K in absolute terms.There is a 22 992 cab on collecting cars that should be reasonable guide
Thing is with 992s is that the supply is v restricted and likely to remain that way with regular price rises so I cannot see them falling to much below list (especially for non trade) unless economy seriously contracts
There must come a time when normal relationships in used/new prices return. This is not a collectable car and subject to the insanity of that market.
The thing I don’t get, and it’s the same on the “will used cars crash” thread;
People are holding off buying until (insert some period when the poster thinks their bubble will burst) say late 2023. They have been doing so in some cases since 2020. So three years sat around wanting something, having the money for something, but buying nothing miserably.
They do so in the hope of “normality returning”.
The problem is, if that normality returned their new acquisition would depreciate like they did in the old normal.
Net result, they’d be no better off over the same time period. It’s a fools paradise.
People are holding off buying until (insert some period when the poster thinks their bubble will burst) say late 2023. They have been doing so in some cases since 2020. So three years sat around wanting something, having the money for something, but buying nothing miserably.
They do so in the hope of “normality returning”.
The problem is, if that normality returned their new acquisition would depreciate like they did in the old normal.
Net result, they’d be no better off over the same time period. It’s a fools paradise.
Pflanzgarten said:
The thing I don’t get, and it’s the same on the “will used cars crash” thread;
People are holding off buying until (insert some period when the poster thinks their bubble will burst) say late 2023. They have been doing so in some cases since 2020. So three years sat around wanting something, having the money for something, but buying nothing miserably.
They do so in the hope of “normality returning”.
The problem is, if that normality returned their new acquisition would depreciate like they did in the old normal.
Net result, they’d be no better off over the same time period. It’s a fools paradise.
Quite and it is exactly the same on the house price threads especially since c2018 when the usual naysayers and doomongers have been forcasting a major crash for years which if anyone had taken their 'sage' advice they wouldn't have enjoyed gains of up to 60% in some cases.People are holding off buying until (insert some period when the poster thinks their bubble will burst) say late 2023. They have been doing so in some cases since 2020. So three years sat around wanting something, having the money for something, but buying nothing miserably.
They do so in the hope of “normality returning”.
The problem is, if that normality returned their new acquisition would depreciate like they did in the old normal.
Net result, they’d be no better off over the same time period. It’s a fools paradise.
It is the usual broken clock is right twice a day syndrome.
These same doomongers also incorrectly predicted car prices crashing following numerous latter day issues including dieselgate, the pandemic and other scenarios you name them they incorrectly predicted them lol but they catastrophically failed to price in supply chain issues massively rising prices of new cars and the cost building them the effects of the value of the ££ together with the severely restricted supply of new cars all of which increased the value of used ££.
Yep we are clearly approaching a number of economic headwinds for sure resulting a in slight reduction in demand for cars such as Porsches but to expect prices to severely reduce mindful of the above factors is delusional.
Pflanzgarten said:
The thing I don’t get, and it’s the same on the “will used cars crash” thread;
People are holding off buying until (insert some period when the poster thinks their bubble will burst) say late 2023. They have been doing so in some cases since 2020. So three years sat around wanting something, having the money for something, but buying nothing miserably.
They do so in the hope of “normality returning”.
The problem is, if that normality returned their new acquisition would depreciate like they did in the old normal.
Net result, they’d be no better off over the same time period. It’s a fools paradise.
100%.People are holding off buying until (insert some period when the poster thinks their bubble will burst) say late 2023. They have been doing so in some cases since 2020. So three years sat around wanting something, having the money for something, but buying nothing miserably.
They do so in the hope of “normality returning”.
The problem is, if that normality returned their new acquisition would depreciate like they did in the old normal.
Net result, they’d be no better off over the same time period. It’s a fools paradise.
It's that assumption that the crash/correction will be big enough to affect the entire market, but somehow they'll be shielded from it and will subsequently have loads of well-priced motors to choose from.
These people have been waiting for "normal" 3 years and counting. Even if things were to swing more in their favour in say the next 2 years, that'll be 5 years they went without... Lives change in an instant. No way I'd be hanging around waiting for minor corrections on something I could afford now.
Pflanzgarten said:
The thing I don’t get, and it’s the same on the “will used cars crash” thread;
People are holding off buying until (insert some period when the poster thinks their bubble will burst) say late 2023. They have been doing so in some cases since 2020. So three years sat around wanting something, having the money for something, but buying nothing miserably.
They do so in the hope of “normality returning”.
The problem is, if that normality returned their new acquisition would depreciate like they did in the old normal.
Net result, they’d be no better off over the same time period. It’s a fools paradise.
Exactly. And they would have enjoyed the car in the interim, life is short. People are holding off buying until (insert some period when the poster thinks their bubble will burst) say late 2023. They have been doing so in some cases since 2020. So three years sat around wanting something, having the money for something, but buying nothing miserably.
They do so in the hope of “normality returning”.
The problem is, if that normality returned their new acquisition would depreciate like they did in the old normal.
Net result, they’d be no better off over the same time period. It’s a fools paradise.
I think it depends a bit on individual circumstances. I think if it’s a car you ‘need’ as part of your daily life, then yes, suck up the inflated current prices and get on with your life.
If it’s just something you fancy as a toy but have no real immediate need for, then there’s no real downside in waiting it out.
Having said that, I am still smarting about missing out on the low miles / high spec GT silver 991.2 GTS I should have bought in March 2021 (it was £79k). Mrs MM talked me out of it ‘because lockdown’. £95k+ car in current market.
If it’s just something you fancy as a toy but have no real immediate need for, then there’s no real downside in waiting it out.
Having said that, I am still smarting about missing out on the low miles / high spec GT silver 991.2 GTS I should have bought in March 2021 (it was £79k). Mrs MM talked me out of it ‘because lockdown’. £95k+ car in current market.
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